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Suddenly No Spark
#11
(03-31-2019, 07:13 PM)Stanglover Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 04:41 PM)kcmash Wrote: My ignitor III is a newer one(2018- Maybe 2017 from Summit Racing).

So should I put points back in it?  Is the Pertronix that troublesome?   I have been trying to ask and read reviews.  The reviews all state that the III is greatly improved and resolves all the issues.  I did notice my factory tach was working fine when it did run with no resistor mods or anything.

I'v got the beer, I just need someone to help me keep a clear focus and crank the damn thing while I tweak timing and see if I can get a spark.  Otherwise I can put points back in.

The Pertronix tech line thought the module was working fine since I was getting a steady strobe at the coil wire, but he didn't like the fact that I was using a timing light to find spark.  He preferred that I pull the coil wire and look for a spark.  I always get shocked when I do that, so I was not so willing.

What do you think.  Can I see a solid and consistent strobe in my inductive Timing light and still not have a quality spark going to the distributor cap?

kcmash
 I have to be honest, since the troubles I had with a P III in 2012-13 and the fact that Pertronix replaced the part without question, I certainly hope there has been a major redesign of that bearing since. If that is the case then I would not have a problem using a PIII again. It's easy to check while in the distributor, just see if you can move the top plate sideways or up and down, i.e. any movement other than a smooth rotation.
Geoff.

Edit; Sorry I had to take a break. Just thinking about it, if you put the points back in, you also have to put a standard coil in as well.  Do you have a full 12V to your P III? Very important. If not, I'm thinking that could be part of the problem. I'm far from being knowledgeable when it come to electronics, but this is just from my own experience sorting out similar issues. Frustration doesn't even start o cover it!!
Electric Choke. just need a keyed 12V wire to splice into, but make sure it's a good connection, soldered and shrink wrap.

Why would I need a different coil?  We have been able to upgrade coils since the 70's.

On the 12V  at the PIII, there is no way to tell.  I can check the wore at the coil end and it is juiced to 12v.  Once it leaves the coil it is a sealed wire all the way in to the unit.  I asked the Pertronix rep if there was a Digital Voltmeter test I could do and they said no, it was sealed and you can't do any analysis on them.

I am thinking it will start if I get a chance to get her outside again, but you all have me concerned that the PIII is not a reliable unit now.

kcmash
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#12
(03-31-2019, 05:24 PM)kcmash Wrote: OK, The latest.

I reset the timing to 7 degrees BTDC.  I now get spark at the wire according to the Timing light, and she consistently hits the painted mark on the damper at my 7 degrees.  I actually got a "chimmy" out of it so I did get a fire.

Now the question is what next to get a running car.  Which reminds me,  those of you with electric choke carbs, where do you connect?

kcmash

Are you sure it's 7° BTDC on the compression stroke.

If your car has, or had, a throttle position solenoid that is the only place under the hood where you get a full 12 volts with key on. If you bypassed the resistor wire when you installed the Pertronix with a heavy enough wire you could use that. Ford used the stator terminal on the alternator, but that just puts out 6+ volts. The reason they used that was because the only time power is applied to the choke is when the engine is actually running, so the choke doesn't start opening just because the key is on.



“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”
--Albert Einstein
  Reply
#13
(03-31-2019, 08:54 PM)kcmash Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 07:13 PM)Stanglover Wrote:
(03-31-2019, 04:41 PM)kcmash Wrote: My ignitor III is a newer one(2018- Maybe 2017 from Summit Racing).

So should I put points back in it?  Is the Pertronix that troublesome?   I have been trying to ask and read reviews.  The reviews all state that the III is greatly improved and resolves all the issues.  I did notice my factory tach was working fine when it did run with no resistor mods or anything.

I'v got the beer, I just need someone to help me keep a clear focus and crank the damn thing while I tweak timing and see if I can get a spark.  Otherwise I can put points back in.

The Pertronix tech line thought the module was working fine since I was getting a steady strobe at the coil wire, but he didn't like the fact that I was using a timing light to find spark.  He preferred that I pull the coil wire and look for a spark.  I always get shocked when I do that, so I was not so willing.

What do you think.  Can I see a solid and consistent strobe in my inductive Timing light and still not have a quality spark going to the distributor cap?

kcmash
 I have to be honest, since the troubles I had with a P III in 2012-13 and the fact that Pertronix replaced the part without question, I certainly hope there has been a major redesign of that bearing since. If that is the case then I would not have a problem using a PIII again. It's easy to check while in the distributor, just see if you can move the top plate sideways or up and down, i.e. any movement other than a smooth rotation.
Geoff.

Edit; Sorry I had to take a break. Just thinking about it, if you put the points back in, you also have to put a standard coil in as well.  Do you have a full 12V to your P III? Very important. If not, I'm thinking that could be part of the problem. I'm far from being knowledgeable when it come to electronics, but this is just from my own experience sorting out similar issues. Frustration doesn't even start o cover it!!
Electric Choke. just need a keyed 12V wire to splice into, but make sure it's a good connection, soldered and shrink wrap.

Why would I need a different coil?  We have been able to upgrade coils since the 70's.

On the 12V  at the PIII, there is no way to tell.  I can check the wore at the coil end and it is juiced to 12v.  Once it leaves the coil it is a sealed wire all the way in to the unit.  I asked the Pertronix rep if there was a Digital Voltmeter test I could do and they said no, it was sealed and you can't do any analysis on them.

I am thinking it will start if I get a chance to get her outside again, but you all have me concerned that the PIII is not a reliable unit now.

kcmash

kc, coil, that's just my understanding that a super high voltage coil like the Flamethrower, might be an issue with a points set-up. As I've said many times, I'm no electrical expert, far from it. Midlife or others can tell you for sure.
On the P III, I'm not talking about the electrical performance as I don't believe there is an issue with that. It's the mechanical construction of the Ford unit that was problematic to me. If it fitted the same way as the P II, a direct replacement for the points, I think it would be good, but for the Ford it has plates that replace the old points plates and that is where the problem lies, the plastic bearing/bushing between them.
As for getting a full 12V, have you bypassed the pink resistor wire under the dash? Pertronix make a (expensive) relay to directly wire in the unit. Some say any 12V relay would work, I can't comment on that for sure.
Even if you decide to junk that PIII and buy a P II, you still need a full 12V supply, or you could buy a P I and that will be ok on the reduced voltage normally at the coil according to Pertronix. I believe you would still need to match the coil to it though.
You may have other nasty things going on as well and this issue is not the direct cause. It's eliminating one thing at a time.
Good luck my friend,

Geoff.

I learn something new every day!
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#14
(03-31-2019, 08:54 PM)kcmash Wrote: Why would I need a different coil?  We have been able to upgrade coils since the 70's.

On the 12V  at the PIII, there is no way to tell.  I can check the wore at the coil end and it is juiced to 12v.  Once it leaves the coil it is a sealed wire all the way in to the unit.  I asked the Pertronix rep if there was a Digital Voltmeter test I could do and they said no, it was sealed and you can't do any analysis on them.

I am thinking it will start if I get a chance to get her outside again, but you all have me concerned that the PIII is not a reliable unit now.

kcmash
Coils are designed to work on either the reduced voltage through the resistor (stock with points) or full battery voltage with aftermarket systems.

Measuring the voltage at the coil positive terminal will tell you nothing until you apply a load to the coil, as when the points are closed or the electronic module applies a ground to it. At that point both the coil and resistor wire are electrically loaded and the actual volatge being delivered to the coil can be measured.

Temporarily run a wire from the negative terminal on the coil to a good ground and then measure the voltage at the positive coil terminal, when the ignition key is in the on position. Do not leave the ground wire on or the key on for more than a few minutes or the coil will overheat. If the voltage reads more than one or two volts less than battery voltage the resistor wire is still in the circuit and Pertronix II or III will not function properly.

If the resistor wire is no longer connected to the coil you can run points only for a short time when testing or in an emergency, as the points will quickly start to pit and won't last long.



“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”
--Albert Einstein
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