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Out of Gas
#11
(05-14-2019, 03:13 PM)Don C Wrote: I would just try it at the 14° for a couple of days, so you get a feel for how it's running, and then try it at 16°. I don't know that I would go more than 16°.

Factory spec is 6B, and the car ran 99 octane back then.

mike
  Reply
#12
Just like now, back then factory tune was not a performance tune so to speak.

73 Grandé H Code. Headman long tube headers, T-5 Transmission, 3.70 Traclok, Lowered 1" all around, Aussie 2v heads w/ 2.19 intake, 1.71 exhaust, screw in studs, full roller cam 608/612 lift 280/281 duration LSA 112, Quick Fuel 750 CFM double pumper, AirGap intake.

- Jason


[Image: 082-hot-rod-power-tour-2017-1970-1970s.jpg]
  Reply
#13
(05-14-2019, 06:56 AM)goodnigh Wrote: Gas gauge is not working currently so never knew how full or empty
the tank was.  Drove the car around on short trips.  Started the other
day and after about five minutes the engine stopped running.  Cranked
a few times, a couple of hits then nothing.  My mechanic stuck his
finger down the carb and came back dry.  Cool!  Empty tank.
Don't drive the car that much and only short trips so the gas has been
there for awhile.  Good to get it gone.  The engine, D0AE Cleveland,
has less than 5000 miles on it.  My mechanic wants to put some aviation
gas in it, 100+ octane.  You can take a jerry can to the local airport.
Probably need to retard the timing a bit, may to 6 degrees?
What say you?

mike
I would not use 100% 100 octane Low Lead. Low lead is mis-leading, it still has much more lead than our old leaded fuel contained. I think it will prematurely lead foul the plugs. Also, it is way more octane than you need. Avgas is rated by the MON (Motor Octane Number) method. Our old (circa 1970) gasoline was rated by the RON (Research Octane Number) method. In most cases the RON number will be 8-10 numbers higher than the MON number. So, Avgas 100LL has a RON number of about 110. The current method for rating octane in the U.S. is RON+MON/2, also referred to as "anti-knock index" (AKI). So, using the AKI method 100 LL avgas is about 105 octane. Using Avgas blended with pump premium, at a reasonable ratio, would likely be fine.
You may remember Sunoco 260 Super Premium from the old days. The RON number was used at that time and was 102. Using the AKI method it was 97-98 octane. I don't know the specifics of your engine, compression and cam specs, but I suspect pump 93 AKI should work without detonation unless you have too much advance, the curve is too fast, the rear gear starts with a 2, or the Dynamic Compression is higher than I would guess.
I've never built an OC 4V headed 351C so I can speak to how much advance it may want. The CC 4V headed 351Cs I've built wanted 36 degrees total as verified on the Dyno. Initial timing varies a bit with cam specs however, a reasonable street cam usually likes 16 degrees.
Let us know how you decide to go. It may help others later on. Chuck
  Reply
#14
(05-15-2019, 11:45 AM)c9zx Wrote:
(05-14-2019, 06:56 AM)goodnigh Wrote: Gas gauge is not working currently so never knew how full or empty
the tank was.  Drove the car around on short trips.  Started the other
day and after about five minutes the engine stopped running.  Cranked
a few times, a couple of hits then nothing.  My mechanic stuck his
finger down the carb and came back dry.  Cool!  Empty tank.
Don't drive the car that much and only short trips so the gas has been
there for awhile.  Good to get it gone.  The engine, D0AE Cleveland,
has less than 5000 miles on it.  My mechanic wants to put some aviation
gas in it, 100+ octane.  You can take a jerry can to the local airport.
Probably need to retard the timing a bit, may to 6 degrees?
What say you?

mike
I would not use 100% 100 octane Low Lead. Low lead is mis-leading, it still has much more lead than our old leaded fuel contained. I think it will prematurely lead foul the plugs. Also, it is way more octane than you need. Avgas is rated by the MON (Motor Octane Number) method. Our old (circa 1970) gasoline was rated by the RON (Research Octane Number) method. In most cases the RON number will be 8-10 numbers higher than the MON number. So, Avgas 100LL has a RON number of about 110. The current method for rating octane in the U.S. is RON+MON/2, also referred to as "anti-knock index" (AKI). So, using the AKI method 100 LL avgas is about 105 octane. Using Avgas blended with pump premium, at a reasonable ratio, would likely be fine.
You may remember Sunoco 260 Super Premium from the old days. The RON number was used at that time and was 102. Using the AKI method it was 97-98 octane. I don't know the specifics of your engine, compression and cam specs, but I suspect pump 93 AKI should work without detonation unless you have too much advance, the curve is too fast, the rear gear starts with a 2, or the Dynamic Compression is higher than I would guess.
I've never built an OC 4V headed 351C so I can speak to how much advance it may want. The CC 4V headed 351Cs I've built wanted 36 degrees total as verified on the Dyno. Initial timing varies a bit with cam specs however, a reasonable street cam usually likes 16 degrees.
Let us know how you decide to go. It may help others later on. Chuck

Can only get 91 octane E10 here, car runs pretty good now although having never driven
a Mustang I have nothing to compare it to.  My mechanic worked on these back in the day
and stated this engine is cherry.  We believe this is closed chamber having D0AE block markings.
Will try and get a reading of the VIN on the block which may tell me something.  Also has some
kind of cam.  Measured valve lift at 0.58 although a forum member said that is hard to do after
the engine is assembled.  Have a recording of the engine and was told it does not sound like that
radical a cam.  Also, purchased (stole) this never fired rebuilt long block from Don of OMS, 'nuff said.

mike
  Reply
#15
(05-15-2019, 04:50 PM)goodnigh Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 11:45 AM)c9zx Wrote:
(05-14-2019, 06:56 AM)goodnigh Wrote: Gas gauge is not working currently so never knew how full or empty
the tank was.  Drove the car around on short trips.  Started the other
day and after about five minutes the engine stopped running.  Cranked
a few times, a couple of hits then nothing.  My mechanic stuck his
finger down the carb and came back dry.  Cool!  Empty tank.
Don't drive the car that much and only short trips so the gas has been
there for awhile.  Good to get it gone.  The engine, D0AE Cleveland,
has less than 5000 miles on it.  My mechanic wants to put some aviation
gas in it, 100+ octane.  You can take a jerry can to the local airport.
Probably need to retard the timing a bit, may to 6 degrees?
What say you?

mike
I would not use 100% 100 octane Low Lead. Low lead is mis-leading, it still has much more lead than our old leaded fuel contained. I think it will prematurely lead foul the plugs. Also, it is way more octane than you need. Avgas is rated by the MON (Motor Octane Number) method. Our old (circa 1970) gasoline was rated by the RON (Research Octane Number) method. In most cases the RON number will be 8-10 numbers higher than the MON number. So, Avgas 100LL has a RON number of about 110. The current method for rating octane in the U.S. is RON+MON/2, also referred to as "anti-knock index" (AKI). So, using the AKI method 100 LL avgas is about 105 octane. Using Avgas blended with pump premium, at a reasonable ratio, would likely be fine.
You may remember Sunoco 260 Super Premium from the old days. The RON number was used at that time and was 102. Using the AKI method it was 97-98 octane. I don't know the specifics of your engine, compression and cam specs, but I suspect pump 93 AKI should work without detonation unless you have too much advance, the curve is too fast, the rear gear starts with a 2, or the Dynamic Compression is higher than I would guess.
I've never built an OC 4V headed 351C so I can speak to how much advance it may want. The CC 4V headed 351Cs I've built wanted 36 degrees total as verified on the Dyno. Initial timing varies a bit with cam specs however, a reasonable street cam usually likes 16 degrees.
Let us know how you decide to go. It may help others later on. Chuck

Can only get 91 octane E10 here, car runs pretty good now although having never driven
a Mustang I have nothing to compare it to.  My mechanic worked on these back in the day
and stated this engine is cherry.  We believe this is closed chamber having D0AE block markings.
Will try and get a reading of the VIN on the block which may tell me something.  Also has some
kind of cam.  Measured valve lift at 0.58 although a forum member said that is hard to do after
the engine is assembled.  Have a recording of the engine and was told it does not sound like that
radical a cam.  Also, purchased (stole) this never fired rebuilt long block from Don of OMS, 'nuff said.

mike
If you want to mix fuels here is a formula from the Sunoco Race Fuel site. ( [ % Fuel A ] x [ Octane of Fuel A ] ) + ( [ % Fuel B ] x [ Octane of Fuel B ] ) = Octane of Mixture    Chuck
  Reply
#16
(05-16-2019, 07:38 AM)c9zx Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 04:50 PM)goodnigh Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 11:45 AM)c9zx Wrote: I would not use 100% 100 octane Low Lead. Low lead is mis-leading, it still has much more lead than our old leaded fuel contained. I think it will prematurely lead foul the plugs. Also, it is way more octane than you need. Avgas is rated by the MON (Motor Octane Number) method. Our old (circa 1970) gasoline was rated by the RON (Research Octane Number) method. In most cases the RON number will be 8-10 numbers higher than the MON number. So, Avgas 100LL has a RON number of about 110. The current method for rating octane in the U.S. is RON+MON/2, also referred to as "anti-knock index" (AKI). So, using the AKI method 100 LL avgas is about 105 octane. Using Avgas blended with pump premium, at a reasonable ratio, would likely be fine.
You may remember Sunoco 260 Super Premium from the old days. The RON number was used at that time and was 102. Using the AKI method it was 97-98 octane. I don't know the specifics of your engine, compression and cam specs, but I suspect pump 93 AKI should work without detonation unless you have too much advance, the curve is too fast, the rear gear starts with a 2, or the Dynamic Compression is higher than I would guess.
I've never built an OC 4V headed 351C so I can speak to how much advance it may want. The CC 4V headed 351Cs I've built wanted 36 degrees total as verified on the Dyno. Initial timing varies a bit with cam specs however, a reasonable street cam usually likes 16 degrees.
Let us know how you decide to go. It may help others later on. Chuck

Can only get 91 octane E10 here, car runs pretty good now although having never driven
a Mustang I have nothing to compare it to.  My mechanic worked on these back in the day
and stated this engine is cherry.  We believe this is closed chamber having D0AE block markings.
Will try and get a reading of the VIN on the block which may tell me something.  Also has some
kind of cam.  Measured valve lift at 0.58 although a forum member said that is hard to do after
the engine is assembled.  Have a recording of the engine and was told it does not sound like that
radical a cam.  Also, purchased (stole) this never fired rebuilt long block from Don of OMS, 'nuff said.

mike
If you want to mix fuels here is a formula from the Sunoco Race Fuel site. ( [ % Fuel A ] x [ Octane of Fuel A ] ) + ( [ % Fuel B ] x [ Octane of Fuel B ] ) = Octane of Mixture    Chuck

Thanks for the formula, would come in handy.  I have been told there are a couple of gas stations in
the area that sell 100 octane E free but don't know if you are allowed to pump it into your tank.
Eight dollars a gallon I have heard.  This probably all sounds crazy, but this is California.  Where they
spend an entire State level legislative session banning plastic straws.

mike
  Reply
#17
There are alternatives such as additives from VP Race Fuel, and Torco. Probably not a lot cheaper but, more convenient. https://vpracingfuels.com/product/octanium/   https://www.torcousa.com/torco_product/un_acce.html
As to the prevalent California state of mind, it a appears to be Judgement Deficiency Syndrome (JDS). It is also commonly found in many coastal areas in the United States and Canada. Chuck
  Reply
#18
(05-15-2019, 04:50 PM)goodnigh Wrote:
(05-15-2019, 11:45 AM)c9zx Wrote:
(05-14-2019, 06:56 AM)goodnigh Wrote: Gas gauge is not working currently so never knew how full or empty
the tank was.  Drove the car around on short trips.  Started the other
day and after about five minutes the engine stopped running.  Cranked
a few times, a couple of hits then nothing.  My mechanic stuck his
finger down the carb and came back dry.  Cool!  Empty tank.
Don't drive the car that much and only short trips so the gas has been
there for awhile.  Good to get it gone.  The engine, D0AE Cleveland,
has less than 5000 miles on it.  My mechanic wants to put some aviation
gas in it, 100+ octane.  You can take a jerry can to the local airport.
Probably need to retard the timing a bit, may to 6 degrees?
What say you?

mike
I would not use 100% 100 octane Low Lead. Low lead is mis-leading, it still has much more lead than our old leaded fuel contained. I think it will prematurely lead foul the plugs. Also, it is way more octane than you need. Avgas is rated by the MON (Motor Octane Number) method. Our old (circa 1970) gasoline was rated by the RON (Research Octane Number) method. In most cases the RON number will be 8-10 numbers higher than the MON number. So, Avgas 100LL has a RON number of about 110. The current method for rating octane in the U.S. is RON+MON/2, also referred to as "anti-knock index" (AKI). So, using the AKI method 100 LL avgas is about 105 octane. Using Avgas blended with pump premium, at a reasonable ratio, would likely be fine.
You may remember Sunoco 260 Super Premium from the old days. The RON number was used at that time and was 102. Using the AKI method it was 97-98 octane. I don't know the specifics of your engine, compression and cam specs, but I suspect pump 93 AKI should work without detonation unless you have too much advance, the curve is too fast, the rear gear starts with a 2, or the Dynamic Compression is higher than I would guess.
I've never built an OC 4V headed 351C so I can speak to how much advance it may want. The CC 4V headed 351Cs I've built wanted 36 degrees total as verified on the Dyno. Initial timing varies a bit with cam specs however, a reasonable street cam usually likes 16 degrees.
Let us know how you decide to go. It may help others later on. Chuck

Can only get 91 octane E10 here, car runs pretty good now although having never driven
a Mustang I have nothing to compare it to.  My mechanic worked on these back in the day
and stated this engine is cherry.  We believe this is closed chamber having D0AE block markings.
Will try and get a reading of the VIN on the block which may tell me something.  Also has some
kind of cam.  Measured valve lift at 0.58 although a forum member said that is hard to do after
the engine is assembled.  Have a recording of the engine and was told it does not sound like that
radical a cam.  Also, purchased (stole) this never fired rebuilt long block from Don of OMS, 'nuff said.

mike

Yes it is CC heads, should be a bit over 10 : 1  cam is not that radical ... stick with the 14 degrees , you daily driver it .
Did you install the 350 trac lock I sent you ????  OR are those 275's still out back whistling 
That gear swap will be the biggest change you will feel but your rear tires will not like you , the guy at the tire store will rofl
  Reply
#19
(05-14-2019, 03:45 PM)goodnigh Wrote:
(05-14-2019, 03:13 PM)Don C Wrote: I would just try it at the 14° for a couple of days, so you get a feel for how it's running, and then try it at 16°. I don't know that I would go more than 16°.

Factory spec is 6B, and the car ran 99 octane back then.

mike
That spec was for the stock M code cam which was very mild. The way it sounds there is an aftermarket performance cam in the engine now. A lot more lift, duration, and overlap than the M code cam. It will want more initial timing than stock. Chuck
  Reply
#20
(05-17-2019, 08:12 AM)c9zx Wrote: There are alternatives such as additives from VP Race Fuel, and Torco. Probably not a lot cheaper but, more convenient. https://vpracingfuels.com/product/octanium/   https://www.torcousa.com/torco_product/un_acce.html
As to the prevalent California state of mind, it a appears to be Judgement Deficiency Syndrome (JDS). It is also commonly found in many coastal areas in the United States and Canada. Chuck

California is more of an oligarchy than a democracy.  Being born and raised in Ohio
I find this very strange and somewhat amusing.

mike
  Reply
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