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Oil Revisited
#1
We are in the break in process for a rebuilt 351C 4V and it is time to change the oil. We ran 30W at first and will go with a 10W/30 for the winter although 10W/40 is the recommended weight, new engine. My question is about Zinc. I bought a Zinc additive that states in the fine print "contains no Zinc". Does anyone know of a Zinc product that contains Zinc? Maybe the new engine does not need it being newly rebuilt and never fired until now. This is a '71 M-code and we want it to last another 40 years.

mike

[Image: 1_11_11_13_11_50_27.png]
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#2
I'm guessing it's a flat tappet cam, correct? If so, you should use the ZDDP additive, otherwise you have a higher risk of cam failure. As spring pressures go up (by having aftermarket cams necessitating higher seat pressures) the need for ZDDP goes up.

Although I have not used them, there are products that have ZDDP in them. Lucas makes one and they sell it at Advanced Auto. The Gumout or STP oil additives, if you read on the back or in the bottom fine print, you will see that say they are a ZDDP additive. I do not know how many PPM they offer tho, but I think standard oil is somewhere around 800 ppm and you need at least 1200 ppm.

A great site with more information than you could possibly ever read on oils/additives/ ZDDP is http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

You can also order products from summit, such as "Cam Shield" or other cam break in oils.

Chaz

[Image: l.jpg]

71 Fastback.
9in 31 spline True Track with 4.30 gears and rear disc
Rebuilt/Upgraded 4r70w transmission with manual valve body
MMC aluminum driveshaft (from a 2000 Police interceptor)
408w with Canfield heads, 11:2 compression, MME camshaft.

Currently swapping to 225 high ports and solid roller cam.
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#3
goodnigh;42568 Wrote:We are in the break in process for a rebuilt 351C 4V and it is time to change the oil. We ran 30W at first and will go with a 10W/30 for the winter although 10W/40 is the recommended weight, new engine. My question is about Zinc. I bought a Zinc additive that states in the fine print "contains no Zinc". Does anyone know of a Zinc product that contains Zinc? Maybe the new engine does not need it being newly rebuilt and never fired until now. This is a '71 M-code and we want it to last another 40 years.

mike

Did you run a break-in oil with high zinc levels such as Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs? If not, you may have started off on the wrong foot.

But at any rate, I run Valvoline VR-1 racing oil that has correct levels on ZDDP built in and have no need for any additives, etc.. Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs also make high-zinc motor oils, but they're more expensive. There are ZDDP additives out there, but the research I did on them showed the experts all over the map as to their efficiency versus an oil with the protection built in.

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#4
danoreilly;42572 Wrote:Did you run a break-in oil with high zinc levels such as Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs? If not, you may have started off on the wrong foot.

But at any rate, I run Valvoline VR-1 racing oil that has correct levels on ZDDP built in and have no need for any additives, etc.. Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs also make high-zinc motor oils, but they're more expensive. There are ZDDP additives out there, but the research I did on them showed the experts all over the map as to their efficiency versus an oil with the protection built in.

I thought I looked at VR-1 a while back and it was a synthetic. Have to check again.
We did not run a Zinc specific oil during the break in period which is at about 200 miles now. We wanted to wear in the bearings and remove micro burrs before hardening the metal with Zinc.

mike

Darkhorse71;42570 Wrote:I'm guessing it's a flat tappet cam, correct? If so, you should use the ZDDP additive, otherwise you have a higher risk of cam failure. As spring pressures go up (by having aftermarket cams necessitating higher seat pressures) the need for ZDDP goes up.

Chaz

Yes, it is a flat cam but the rebuilder installed a racing cam. We measured one of the 351C 4V lobes at 0.58 so we need some zinc. I am thinking about taking the car for an oil change to the dealer where it was first sold 40 years ago. They are just down the road and this could be fun. I will produce a copy of the original window sticker and ask for dino oil with plenty of zinc.

mike

[Image: 1_11_11_13_11_50_27.png]
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#5
goodnigh;42611 Wrote:I thought I looked at VR-1 a while back and it was a synthetic. Have to check again.
We did not run a Zinc specific oil during the break in period which is at about 200 miles now. We wanted to wear in the bearings and remove micro burrs before hardening the metal with Zinc.

Are you running flat tappets or rollers? If flat tappets, the break-in oil - actually, the ZDDP in it - is designed to prevent premature wear on the lifters and more importantly, to prevent rounding the lobes right off the cam, and that can happen in a surprisingly short time. Wearing in the bearings like that without the proper ZDDP could well be destroying your cam (not to mention all the nice bits of metal spreading throughout the motor - including the bearings).

If you're running a roller lifter setup, then you don't need to worry about zinc. The zinc is for the cam and flat tappets.
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#6
danoreilly;42572 Wrote:
goodnigh;42568 Wrote:We are in the break in process for a rebuilt 351C 4V and it is time to change the oil. We ran 30W at first and will go with a 10W/30 for the winter although 10W/40 is the recommended weight, new engine. My question is about Zinc. I bought a Zinc additive that states in the fine print "contains no Zinc". Does anyone know of a Zinc product that contains Zinc? Maybe the new engine does not need it being newly rebuilt and never fired until now. This is a '71 M-code and we want it to last another 40 years.

mike

Did you run a break-in oil with high zinc levels such as Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs? If not, you may have started off on the wrong foot.

But at any rate, I run Valvoline VR-1 racing oil that has correct levels on ZDDP built in and have no need for any additives, etc.. Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs also make high-zinc motor oils, but they're more expensive. There are ZDDP additives out there, but the research I did on them showed the experts all over the map as to their efficiency versus an oil with the protection built in.

Contacted Valvoline about the proper oil for my application and they said use VR-1 racing oil, just like you saidBig Grin Has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm phosphorus. Did not doubt your advice, just needed a second opinion.

mike

[Image: 1_11_11_13_11_50_27.png]
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#7
Mike, I just saw the 30 wt oil note
I would advise to get that out NOW
Get some 10 - 30 or 40 in there.
I think a 30 wt is to much on start up.
Don

Ohio Mustang Supply
440-949-2556

[Image: oms_sig_banner.jpg]
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#8
goodnigh;42788 Wrote:Contacted Valvoline about the proper oil for my application and they said use VR-1 racing oil, just like you saidBig Grin Has 1400 ppm zinc and 1200 ppm phosphorus. Did not doubt your advice, just needed a second opinion.

No problem. I get good advice all the time on this list, and welcome the chance to put my $.02 in when it helps! Tongue

My engine guy is EXTREMELY knowledgeable, and one thing that convince me to go with him is we had a 20 minute discussion on oil. He keeps up on that stuff (seminars, that sort of thing).
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#9
OMS;42791 Wrote:Mike, I just saw the 30 wt oil note
I would advise to get that out NOW
Get some 10 - 30 or 40 in there.
I think a 30 wt is to much on start up.
Don

The engine has around 5 hours on it now.
We are going to go with a 10W/30 VR-1
then do the final tune up. The engine was
initially de-tuned after we accidently did a
burn out while trying to move the car from
the driveway to the street.

mike

[Image: 1_11_11_13_11_50_27.png]
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#10
goodnigh;42823 Wrote:The engine was
initially de-tuned after we accidently did a
burn out while trying to move the car from
the driveway to the street.

mike

"...but officer it really was an accident. I didn't know how much power the newly rebuilt engine would put out. These engines were banned from NASCAR back in the day for being too good. I guess my engine builder knew how to tweak it just right. Want to race at the track?" Big Grin




[Image: 386_07_10_13_5_58_42.jpeg]
My Mustangs:
71 M-code Mach 1, Medium Blue/White Sport, 4R70W, 3L50, Factory Ram Air.
72 Q-code Mach 1, Pewter/Black Sport, 4-spd, 3L25.
65 Convertible, Britney Blue/White/White, more modified than original.
05 Convertible, Legend Lime/Tan/Tan, future classic??
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