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NEW UPDATE:12/08/16 - pulling heads MORE QUESTIONS!
#11
Bob, it's hard for me to say for sure whether or not you have hard exhaust seats, but from what I see, I'd say no. Borrow a valve spring compressor from one of the auto parts stores (autozone and o'reilly typically loan this sort of tool) and pull the valves on the suspect cylinder.

One thing I notice is the plug in that cylinder looks to be lean or nearly a brand new plug. The exhaust valve appears to be sunk into the seat, but again, hard to tell from a picture. The top of the valve should be slightly above the portion of the seat just beyond the valve head OD.

5000 miles on unleaded isn't enough to cause a problem with exhaust seats. The smoking could be a sign of an intake runner sucking in oil and leaning out a cylinder. The valley pan (intake gasket) has a raised rib just inboard of each port opening. This gets crushed when the intake is torqued....take a look and see if you can find a portion of that rib that isn't flattened out.

There's a tiny mark on the exhaust valve relieve in the pic with single cylinder/piston shown...check the push rods to see if any are bent....a telltale that a valve contacted a piston for whatever reason. Was there any clattering from the engine?

Lots of knowledge on this site...I'm sure you'll get some good input from others.
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#12
I believe you had a blown head gasket-though the pictures make it hard to see.

Also the turkey pan can make sealing the intake manifold a little tricky. If the intake gaskets are bad, they will allow the intake to suck oil into the cylinders.

Hardened valve seats are something not everyone agrees on. While they do have advantages, they also have the drawbacks of possibly cutting into the water jacket when installing them and if not installed properly they can come loose and cause all kinds of damage. While not having them will likely mean a valve job after 50,000 miles of use-that's a lot of mileage for a hobby car.

My advice would be a valve job with new 1 piece stainless valves and have it done by someone that is willing to do it right, then reassemble with fresh gaskets without using the turkey pan.

[Image: 1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png]

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!
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#13
basstrix;251125 Wrote:Bob, it's hard for me to say for sure whether or not you have hard exhaust seats, but from what I see, I'd say no. Borrow a valve spring compressor from one of the auto parts stores (autozone and o'reilly typically loan this sort of tool) and pull the valves on the suspect cylinder.

One thing I notice is the plug in that cylinder looks to be lean or nearly a brand new plug. The exhaust valve appears to be sunk into the seat, but again, hard to tell from a picture. The top of the valve should be slightly above the portion of the seat just beyond the valve head OD.

5000 miles on unleaded isn't enough to cause a problem with exhaust seats. The smoking could be a sign of an intake runner sucking in oil and leaning out a cylinder. The valley pan (intake gasket) has a raised rib just inboard of each port opening. This gets crushed when the intake is torqued....take a look and see if you can find a portion of that rib that isn't flattened out.

There's a tiny mark on the exhaust valve relieve in the pic with single cylinder/piston shown...check the push rods to see if any are bent....a telltale that a valve contacted a piston for whatever reason. Was there any clattering from the engine?

Lots of knowledge on this site...I'm sure you'll get some good input from others.

The engine runs very smooth and quite....that's why im having a problem with tearing this motor down. Just smokes and low on compression. Thanks for the ideas

Jeff73Mach1;251136 Wrote:I believe you had a blown head gasket-though the pictures make it hard to see.

Also the turkey pan can make sealing the intake manifold a little tricky. If the intake gaskets are bad, they will allow the intake to suck oil into the cylinders.

Hardened valve seats are something not everyone agrees on. While they do have advantages, they also have the drawbacks of possibly cutting into the water jacket when installing them and if not installed properly they can come loose and cause all kinds of damage. While not having them will likely mean a valve job after 50,000 miles of use-that's a lot of mileage for a hobby car.

My advice would be a valve job with new 1 piece stainless valves and have it done by someone that is willing to do it right, then reassemble with fresh gaskets without using the turkey pan.

thanks for the help

what do you guys think about the carbon missing around the edges of the piston top? I have heard people say in the past that that is a sign of ring problems. Do you think these look normal?

Bob J
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#14
I think the carbon is cleaned off by the oil, but if it is a result of a leaking gasket drawing oil in, then the rings aren't necessarily bad.

I would rebuild the heads and reinstall everything with good gaskets. Compression numbers with poorly seated valves or a blown head gasket won't be up to snuff-so once you fix that I think you have a good chance of having a nice running engine-if You still have issues after that you've wasted some gaskets and the other work would have been just as necessary.

[Image: 1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png]

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!
  Reply
#15
In regard to Jeff's thought about a head gasket: What color is the smoke coming from passenger side and does the "smoke" linger or does it rapidly dissipate? If it's blue and lingers, then it's oil of some sort (could be trans fluid coming from a blown vacuum modulator, for example). If it dissipates, it's steam and supports the leaking head gasket. I don't see any piston tops that are clean. Generally, a coolant leak into a cylinder will clean up the affected cylinder(s), but not always. Did you scrape the carbon off the center of the picture which shows only 1 piston top and the .030 stamp is visible?

Do all of the plugs look like the one shown in the picture and are the plugs new? As I said before, that plug looks lean or very new. A lean cylinder is certainly a cause for a burned exhaust valve and could be the root cause of your issue.

As far as the carbon, this looks to me like an engine with low miles.
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#16
basstrix;251151 Wrote:In regard to Jeff's thought about a head gasket: What color is the smoke coming from passenger side and does the "smoke" linger or does it rapidly dissipate? If it's blue and lingers, then it's oil of some sort (could be trans fluid coming from a blown vacuum modulator, for example). If it dissipates, it's steam and supports the leaking head gasket. I don't see any piston tops that are clean. Generally, a coolant leak into a cylinder will clean up the affected cylinder(s), but not always. Did you scrape the carbon off the center of the picture which shows only 1 piston top and the .030 stamp is visible?

Do all of the plugs look like the one shown in the picture and are the plugs new? As I said before, that plug looks lean or very new. A lean cylinder is certainly a cause for a burned exhaust valve and could be the root cause of your issue.

As far as the carbon, this looks to me like an engine with low miles.

The exhaust smoke is blue and lingers....oil for sure. I did scrape the one piston to see what it had been bored out to. The plugs are all new wit h just a few miles. I really appreciate everyone's feed back!

Bob J
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#17
I'm by no means an expert, so I don't know what value my thoughts have, but a couple of things:

1. The picture of the bores makes it look like a quickie hone job over a bore with some wear. I think I see cross hatch over ring wear ( taper) at the top of the bore, and to me that sounds like a re-ring job, not a true rebuild. It could be that since it's already at 0.030" over it was decided to not do another overbore.

2. It does look like the valve seats have some wear and the valves are sinking. An easy way to tell us to look at the tip height of the valve or installed height, but this is harder to eyeball on a Cleveland with its compound valve angles. How do the valves look in the chambers from cylinder to cylinder?

-Matt
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#18
What Matt is saying about the hone marks looks true. I would measure the bore and see what the recommended clearance is for the type pistons in the engine. Might be honed way too big and rings would be very slow to seat if they are.
I never did see all the casting numbers on the heads are the DIAE with the GA which would be the 64 cc closed chamber?
Don't you just hate when you don't know what they did. A guy once told me he rebuilt his engine and after pumping him for info all he did was take it apart and put back to together with new gaskets. No overbore no crank grind nothing. That was his version of a rebuild.
David


When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??
Tongue
David
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#19
A quick and dirty leak check would tell you if the seats are leaking....level off the head and fill each combustion chamber with solvent, diesel, kerosene...something with low viscosity that won't cause corrosion and inspect inside each port for fluid on the other side.

Good advice from David to mic the bores. I'm not seeing anything unusual about the cross hatch...cross hatch wears most at the top of the stroke where cylinder pressure forces the rings against the cylinder walls, but like Matt said, I'm no expert. It did make me think of something else....notice how the hatch has worn the most at the top of the stroke and you can see where the top and 2nd ring top out....if you see a cylinder that doesn't have that wear pattern, it's an indication a ring was installed upside down...and that would definitely cause lower compression and blue smoke....I know this from personal experience Smile Was my first 4-stroke rebuild when I was 15.
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#20
While I see the issue others are concerned about, I sure wouldn't pull and rebuild a fairly fresh engine over those issues without rebuilding the heads and putting it all together properly with fresh gaskets. Again, the shortblock may be imperfect, but I'd bet it will perform well with just the minimum work. And I'd bet the price of the upper gaskets Wink

[Image: 1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png]

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!
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