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Marti Report vs other sources
#1
I found this info interesting where Kevin Marti answered the question, "How come the statistics on my Marti report don't match the numbers in the "by the Numbers" book or other sources?

This seems to confuse people and come up here fairly regularly.

Here is his answer:

http://www.martiauto.com/faqfocus.cfm?qid=141

There are several possible answers:
If you found a statistic published in the Shelby Registry or a magazine or an ad for someone selling their car, it is likely the statistic published by one of those sources is in error. We are working with SAAC, the Shelby Club, to correct some of their incomplete data (which led to erroneous statistics) so that the next issue of the Shelby Registry will be accurate. When it comes to magazines and ads, many times statistics were "made up" for whatever reason, sometimes as a "guess" and sometimes to perpetrate a fraud.
If you found a statistic on your report that doesn't match with one of our "by the Numbers" books, many times the "discrepancy" is a matter of interpretation. For example, a 1967 Mustang with a 390 has an engine code of "S." However, a Shelby GT-500 for the same year also has an engine code of "S" even though the engine is a modified 428 Police Interceptor. Note that the Marti report says, "With these engine/transmission codes" which is not the same as this engine/transmission combination. This is why it is useful to read the footnotes and other commentary in the "by the Numbers" books.
Another example of this can be the definition of the word "option." Some items, like tachometers, are optional on certain cars, while they are included equipment on the same model with particular engine/transmission combinations. For example, a 1969 Mustang with a V-8 could be ordered with a tachometer. However, an FE engine (390 or 428CJ) that was ordered with a manual transmission had the tachometer installed as part of that engine/transmission combination. In this case, the tachometer was not an option on the vehicle. It was an item included with a package. It would not be listed on the window sticker (or the Marti Report) even though it was installed on the vehicle. So, the number of Mustangs ordered with tachometers as an option is not the same as the number of Mustangs with tachometers.
Special paint statistics can be particularly confusing. If you happen to have a Pink 1968 Mustang Convertible and your report shows that 286 had that paint code, note that it did not tell you that 286 were painted Pink, merely that 286 had that paint code. And what is the paint code for a special paint car? It is a " " which is to say the code is blank. Since all special paint cars are blank, the 286 represents all of the special paint 1968 Mustang convertibles, of which the Pink cars are a subset. Since Ford did not keep track of what color they painted special paint cars in the database, there is no way to ascertain the correct number. The best that can be said in this example is that less than 286 were painted Pink.
As always, if you want a clearer understanding of the statistics quoted on your report, study available literature for other subtleties like the aforementioned and read the statistics section of the Marti reports literally.
More information can be found at their FAQ pages,  http://www.martiauto.com/faqsearch.cfm

Answer provided by
Kevin Marti
Last updated March 2, 2012

Ray

1971 Boss 351  
1972 Q code 4 speed convertible 
1971 Mustang Sportsroof  351-2V FMX 
1973 Mach 1 (parts car)
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#2
(06-01-2018, 01:01 PM)Boss1Ray Wrote: I found this info interesting where Kevin Marti answered the question, "How come the statistics on my Marti report don't match the numbers in the "by the Numbers" book or other sources?

This seems to confuse people and come up here fairly regularly.

Here is his answer:

http://www.martiauto.com/faqfocus.cfm?qid=141

There are several possible answers:
If you found a statistic published in the Shelby Registry or a magazine or an ad for someone selling their car, it is likely the statistic published by one of those sources is in error. We are working with SAAC, the Shelby Club, to correct some of their incomplete data (which led to erroneous statistics) so that the next issue of the Shelby Registry will be accurate. When it comes to magazines and ads, many times statistics were "made up" for whatever reason, sometimes as a "guess" and sometimes to perpetrate a fraud.
If you found a statistic on your report that doesn't match with one of our "by the Numbers" books, many times the "discrepancy" is a matter of interpretation. For example, a 1967 Mustang with a 390 has an engine code of "S." However, a Shelby GT-500 for the same year also has an engine code of "S" even though the engine is a modified 428 Police Interceptor. Note that the Marti report says, "With these engine/transmission codes" which is not the same as this engine/transmission combination. This is why it is useful to read the footnotes and other commentary in the "by the Numbers" books.
Another example of this can be the definition of the word "option." Some items, like tachometers, are optional on certain cars, while they are included equipment on the same model with particular engine/transmission combinations. For example, a 1969 Mustang with a V-8 could be ordered with a tachometer. However, an FE engine (390 or 428CJ) that was ordered with a manual transmission had the tachometer installed as part of that engine/transmission combination. In this case, the tachometer was not an option on the vehicle. It was an item included with a package. It would not be listed on the window sticker (or the Marti Report) even though it was installed on the vehicle. So, the number of Mustangs ordered with tachometers as an option is not the same as the number of Mustangs with tachometers.
Special paint statistics can be particularly confusing. If you happen to have a Pink 1968 Mustang Convertible and your report shows that 286 had that paint code, note that it did not tell you that 286 were painted Pink, merely that 286 had that paint code. And what is the paint code for a special paint car? It is a " " which is to say the code is blank. Since all special paint cars are blank, the 286 represents all of the special paint 1968 Mustang convertibles, of which the Pink cars are a subset. Since Ford did not keep track of what color they painted special paint cars in the database, there is no way to ascertain the correct number. The best that can be said in this example is that less than 286 were painted Pink.
As always, if you want a clearer understanding of the statistics quoted on your report, study available literature for other subtleties like the aforementioned and read the statistics section of the Marti reports literally.
More information can be found at their FAQ pages,  http://www.martiauto.com/faqsearch.cfm

Answer provided by
Kevin Marti
Last updated March 2, 2012

Ray

His example of the tach is misleading as if it is a forced option as he stated it should still be included in the total number of vehicles that were factory equipped with a tach.  The system that this data resides in would consider them to be the same.  While I'm extremely grateful for Kevin's marti and his service I know the data system well enough to know hat depending on them options were coded and then how's the day the data is requested will greatly affect the output.  We have all seen examples of marti reports that have incorrect data on them once in a while.

NOT basing his service st all but merely pointing out that nobodies perfect.

Mark
71 Mach 1 J code - Japanese export
72 Convertible f code - first car
Numerous other Fords
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#3
The presence of tach or not is especially prominent n 1967/68. His book has only about 2-3% of Mustangs came with tachs, but that's not the case: it's more like 15-20% based upon a non-representative sample of harnesses that cross my desk (approx. 300). I've read Ford's salesmen's guides and all other information like that and no where does it state that a tach comes with a particular set of options. Even the concours crowd does not know...

Let me check your shorts!
http://midlifeharness.com

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[Image: oldfart.png]
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#4
When I ordered the Marti for my Special Paint 73 vert I questioned him on the numbers. He told me what was here that he did not get the numbers for the Special Order cars be it paint or any other option. That information was kept by the DSO office for that area and they tossed all info I tried to track down more info but nobody kept that stack. So if someone Special Ordered say a power seat from a Cougar in their Mustang Marti cannot say right or wrong. It will have a six digit DSO but nothing on the tag. It will be on the build sheet if you are lucky enough to find one. My build sheet was in my Special Paint car and I sent scan to Marti. He came back and said it was first he had seen for a special paint car and did not know they put the Argent front bumper on and would never have thought it was original but my build sheet states to add Argent Front Bumper.
So no one person is always right.
I have told the story about a Shelby mustang here that had been certified by Shelby as being real. When the rear seat was taken out it was found to be a coupe body that the fastback top had been added to and that the VIN# from Ford in the inner fender had been cut out and welded back and the Shelby tag riveted over it. So even the Shelby guys cannot be trusted.
Only trust what you know to be true. Never assume something is incorrect either due to line errors and such.
My 73 Mach 1 came to me with the incorrect rear and drive shaft from the factory and dealer had to swap out. I kept breaking it and after three I told them something had to be wrong and factory rep came in and checked the car and the factory had installed the smaller U joint 9 inch rear.
David


When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??
Tongue
David
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#5
At least for me, if someone is trying to say their car has this or that is original but not commonly known and they have no documentation - I remain very skeptical. I have learned a lot but just because someone says it doesn't make it true. Short of a good build sheet, Marti is the best we have.
And I enjoy the challenges of discovery about these cars.

To encourage discussion is usually good towards learning more.

Ray

1971 Boss 351  
1972 Q code 4 speed convertible 
1971 Mustang Sportsroof  351-2V FMX 
1973 Mach 1 (parts car)
  Reply
#6
"Marti's the best, most accessible resource we've got," you mean. Wink

Even with all the information at his disposal, the build sheet remains the best resource, IMHO.  My Deluxe Marti Report has some inconsistencies on it, for instance:
  • F70x14 Wide Oval Belted Tires
  • White Sidewall Tires
So, which was it?  The Wide-Ovals, or White 'walls?  Or were there white wall Wide Ovals?  The only ones I've ever seen had raised white letters in the shape of "Firestone Wide-Oval" - so, I'm stumped on that one.

It also does list which wheel covers it came with.  Does nothing specified equal Corporate Dog Dishes?  I actually prefer the Sport Caps, and since it doesn't specify, that's what I'm basing my belief on [the Sport Caps].

It also just says "Console."  OK - which one (there were 2 different consoles available)?  I'm guessing it was the short console, since I had a clock/speedo cluster, it would've made more sense to have the short console in the car - especially, since I noticed the fade marks in the carpet were consistent with the shape of the short console.  However, for the purposes of my car as it sits now, I have a full console.  Technically, I can claim the car came with a full console and still maintain the high-ground, since the Marti Report doesn't specify.  Hey - I'm not exactly lying or anything - I have officially licensed by Ford documentation to back it up, after all.  Wink

I'm not complaining about the Marti Report, just adding my observations and agreement that nothing can be taken for granted to be the ground truth almost 50 years later based on sketchy recorded information.  A good example of that is that my car had an awfully factory-looking dual exhaust cut-out rear valance on it when I bought it, that everybody swears up and down never happened from the factory for an H-Code.  Yet, the trend of modifications and maintenance I found on the car would've simply had the redneck hacks cutting out their own notches in the valance with a jigsaw, rather than actually obtaining the correct part to exchange during a proper exhaust upgrade.

Eric

[Image: mach1sig2.gif]
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#7
(06-03-2018, 03:06 PM)Mister 4x4 Wrote: "Marti's the best, most accessible resource we've got," you mean. Wink

Even with all the information at his disposal, the build sheet remains the best resource, IMHO.  My Deluxe Marti Report has some inconsistencies on it, for instance:
  • F70x14 Wide Oval Belted Tires
  • White Sidewall Tires
So, which was it?  The Wide-Ovals, or White 'walls?  Or were there white wall Wide Ovals?  The only ones I've ever seen had raised white letters in the shape of "Firestone Wide-Oval" - so, I'm stumped on that one.

It also does list which wheel covers it came with.  Does nothing specified equal Corporate Dog Dishes?  I actually prefer the Sport Caps, and since it doesn't specify, that's what I'm basing my belief on [the Sport Caps].

It also just says "Console."  OK - which one (there were 2 different consoles available)?  I'm guessing it was the short console, since I had a clock/speedo cluster, it would've made more sense to have the short console in the car - especially, since I noticed the fade marks in the carpet were consistent with the shape of the short console.  However, for the purposes of my car as it sits now, I have a full console.  Technically, I can claim the car came with a full console and still maintain the high-ground, since the Marti Report doesn't specify.  Hey - I'm not exactly lying or anything - I have officially licensed by Ford documentation to back it up, after all.  Wink

I'm not complaining about the Marti Report, just adding my observations and agreement that nothing can be taken for granted to be the ground truth almost 50 years later based on sketchy recorded information.  A good example of that is that my car had an awfully factory-looking dual exhaust cut-out rear valance on it when I bought it, that everybody swears up and down never happened from the factory for an H-Code.  Yet, the trend of modifications and maintenance I found on the car would've simply had the redneck hacks cutting out their own notches in the valance with a jigsaw, rather than actually obtaining the correct part to exchange during a proper exhaust upgrade.

Mister 4x4,

I could be wrong, but I was once told cars ordered with gauges and no tach, got the clock in the dash (e.g. clock/speedo cluster), AND if you ordered a full console as well you got a clock delete plate in the full console. So your car could still have had a full console from the factory but with the console clock delete plate. 

My recollection these days is not so good, so please correct me if I am wronger here.
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#8
Boy you guys are right on the TACH !!! LOL (I'm laughing now , BUT will have to redo my 69 W axle "someday")

When I bought my car , I got a report and didn't see TACH on the "options" (not knowing that 4speed, R code 69's got tachs) I bought NOS non tach harness, different cluster than what was in my car (assumed owner installed) and sold my tach, (harness is Carlisle) etc etc.

My friends all tell me I need to put the tach in, and have since bought all the stuff to do it, but since it isn't as nice as what I have in there (read too busy with Boss) to start over on the SCJ - I MIGHT "get a round to-it" some day.

Mark
P.S. I should send BOTH harnesses to Midlife to get my used tach harness perfect ! (OR sell the NOS harness to someone with a non tach car getting high dollar restoration!
  Reply
#9
(06-03-2018, 03:06 PM)Mister 4x4 Wrote: "Marti's the best, most accessible resource we've got," you mean. Wink

Even with all the information at his disposal, the build sheet remains the best resource, IMHO.  My Deluxe Marti Report has some inconsistencies on it, for instance:
  • F70x14 Wide Oval Belted Tires
  • White Sidewall Tires
So, which was it?  The Wide-Ovals, or White 'walls?  Or were there white wall Wide Ovals?  The only ones I've ever seen had raised white letters in the shape of "Firestone Wide-Oval" - so, I'm stumped on that one.

It also does list which wheel covers it came with.  Does nothing specified equal Corporate Dog Dishes?  I actually prefer the Sport Caps, and since it doesn't specify, that's what I'm basing my belief on [the Sport Caps].

It also just says "Console."  OK - which one (there were 2 different consoles available)?  I'm guessing it was the short console, since I had a clock/speedo cluster, it would've made more sense to have the short console in the car - especially, since I noticed the fade marks in the carpet were consistent with the shape of the short console.  However, for the purposes of my car as it sits now, I have a full console.  Technically, I can claim the car came with a full console and still maintain the high-ground, since the Marti Report doesn't specify.  Hey - I'm not exactly lying or anything - I have officially licensed by Ford documentation to back it up, after all.  Wink

I'm not complaining about the Marti Report, just adding my observations and agreement that nothing can be taken for granted to be the ground truth almost 50 years later based on sketchy recorded information.  A good example of that is that my car had an awfully factory-looking dual exhaust cut-out rear valance on it when I bought it, that everybody swears up and down never happened from the factory for an H-Code.  Yet, the trend of modifications and maintenance I found on the car would've simply had the redneck hacks cutting out their own notches in the valance with a jigsaw, rather than actually obtaining the correct part to exchange during a proper exhaust upgrade.

Eric - Can you post a link to your marti report so I could take a look at it as I might be able to answer a couple of your questions on how your vehicle was originally equipped.

Mark
71 Mach 1 J code - Japanese export
72 Convertible f code - first car
Numerous other Fords
  Reply
#10
(06-09-2018, 10:20 AM)mwilson7 Wrote:
(06-03-2018, 03:06 PM)Mister 4x4 Wrote: "Marti's the best, most accessible resource we've got," you mean. Wink

Even with all the information at his disposal, the build sheet remains the best resource, IMHO.  My Deluxe Marti Report has some inconsistencies on it, for instance:
  • F70x14 Wide Oval Belted Tires
  • White Sidewall Tires
So, which was it?  The Wide-Ovals, or White 'walls?  Or were there white wall Wide Ovals?  The only ones I've ever seen had raised white letters in the shape of "Firestone Wide-Oval" - so, I'm stumped on that one.

It also does list which wheel covers it came with.  Does nothing specified equal Corporate Dog Dishes?  I actually prefer the Sport Caps, and since it doesn't specify, that's what I'm basing my belief on [the Sport Caps].

It also just says "Console."  OK - which one (there were 2 different consoles available)?  I'm guessing it was the short console, since I had a clock/speedo cluster, it would've made more sense to have the short console in the car - especially, since I noticed the fade marks in the carpet were consistent with the shape of the short console.  However, for the purposes of my car as it sits now, I have a full console.  Technically, I can claim the car came with a full console and still maintain the high-ground, since the Marti Report doesn't specify.  Hey - I'm not exactly lying or anything - I have officially licensed by Ford documentation to back it up, after all.  Wink

I'm not complaining about the Marti Report, just adding my observations and agreement that nothing can be taken for granted to be the ground truth almost 50 years later based on sketchy recorded information.  A good example of that is that my car had an awfully factory-looking dual exhaust cut-out rear valance on it when I bought it, that everybody swears up and down never happened from the factory for an H-Code.  Yet, the trend of modifications and maintenance I found on the car would've simply had the redneck hacks cutting out their own notches in the valance with a jigsaw, rather than actually obtaining the correct part to exchange during a proper exhaust upgrade.

Eric - Can you post a link to your marti report so I could take a look at it as I might be able to answer a couple of your questions on how your vehicle was originally equipped.

Here ya go - it's already been uploaded to the site for years. Wink  https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1971...wter-black

It's pretty straight-forward, Deluxe Report even - but if you can see something I'm completely missing, go for it!  Cool

Eric

[Image: mach1sig2.gif]
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