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Hard to start
#1
Yesterday I drove my brothers dump truck with the 351w and I noticed that if you turn the truck off and then go to start it in a few minutes, the starter turns the motor over really slowly almost to a point of not starting. Also, I noticed the same thing on my mustang when I drove it on Thanksgiving. They both have new starters and long tube headers. Could the headers be heat soaking the starter causing it so spin slowly?

Thanks for looking.

Jayson
[Image: 36319488731_8f2a376549_z.jpg]
73 Mach 1 Mustang
89 Dodge Shadow ES
94 Jeep Wrangler

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#2
Is the engine kicking back [timing]?
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#3
No because it starts fine when it's cold or you give it time to cool off, that's why I thought it was heat related. I may not have explained it correctly, it phycally cranks over slower almost like the battery has a low charge. But on a cold start it cranks just fine and fires right up. I hope that makes sense.

Jayson
[Image: 36319488731_8f2a376549_z.jpg]
73 Mach 1 Mustang
89 Dodge Shadow ES
94 Jeep Wrangler

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#4
Timing is too far advanced. That is the symtom. Loosen the hold down after it's been driven and is hot. Bump it in the retarding direction slightly. Try to start. Continue doing until you can just bump the key to start. Lock it down. Works every time.

[Image: 2rr7aiv.png]

Just cruising along minding our own business when BAM!!! The LAWS show up.
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#5
TheJ;100049 Wrote:No because it starts fine when it's cold or you give it time to cool off, that's why I thought it was heat related. I may not have explained it correctly, it phycally cranks over slower almost like the battery has a low charge. But on a cold start it cranks just fine and fires right up. I hope that makes sense.

Yup..had that happen with my mustang too..Ended up being starter shorting out inside...Sometimes they will short out inside....So they heat up and dont like to start again till they cool....My mustang would let me down at the gas stations and everything...If i went to a freinds house..I would plan on staying for atleast 15 min...Then it would start like a champ!!...Start and run your car for a while...then once you kill it...Feel the bolt head on the wire going from the silenoid to the starter...I bet it hot as hell...once i even was upset on my car not starting at a gas station that i spitt on that bolt too cool it off..lol..and it work!! ..I replaced the starter...starter wire too going up<~~cause its getting hot and loosing it too...and silenoid...and didnt have no more issues with starting...Timing and everything was fine."not saying thats for sure your trouble" But something to look at.
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#6
marks73;100050 Wrote:Timing is too far advanced. That is the symtom. Loosen the hold down after it's been driven and is hot. Bump it in the retarding direction slightly. Try to start. Continue doing until you can just bump the key to start. Lock it down. Works every time.

retarding the timing will lessen the load on the starter, but just because it starts better there doesn't mean it's the correct setting... the correct setting is where the car runs best at, which might be where there is too much pressure to start well with the starter.

If that's the case, make sure the battery, starter and it's wiring is good first (they can get weaker as they get older), you might want to replace it with a high torque starter (not sure if one is available for a 351C, you should be able to find one for a W), if that's all fine then you might want to consider either adding an ignition amplifier box that has a start retard feature (many of the newer ones have one automatically built in), or wire a switch inline with the ignition circuit that allows you to crank the engine without the ignition firing, then you can start the engine cranking and engage the ignition once its turning well. Really, this shouldn't be necessary on a street car, but some of these were built when high compression engines were still common and were built for higher octane gas than is easily available now, and heck, they're 40 years old, who knows what someone built and dropped in in the last 40 years.
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#7
Silverback;100054 Wrote:
marks73;100050 Wrote:Timing is too far advanced. That is the symtom. Loosen the hold down after it's been driven and is hot. Bump it in the retarding direction slightly. Try to start. Continue doing until you can just bump the key to start. Lock it down. Works every time.

retarding the timing will lessen the load on the starter, but just because it starts better there doesn't mean it's the correct setting... the correct setting is where the car runs best at, which might be where there is too much pressure to start well with the starter.

If that's the case, make sure the battery, starter and it's wiring is good first (they can get weaker as they get older), you might want to replace it with a high torque starter (not sure if one is available for a 351C, you should be able to find one for a W), if that's all fine then you might want to consider either adding an ignition amplifier box that has a start retard feature (many of the newer ones have one automatically built in), or wire a switch inline with the ignition circuit that allows you to crank the engine without the ignition firing, then you can start the engine cranking and engage the ignition once its turning well. Really, this shouldn't be necessary on a street car, but some of these were built when high compression engines were still common and were built for higher octane gas than is easily available now, and heck, they're 40 years old, who knows what someone built and dropped in in the last 40 years.

The dump truck has a freshly rebuilt motor (by me) has the stock smog 84 heads and a 79 LTD block. It has a Duraspark ignition system, I'm not sure if it has the start retard feature. As for the mustang it has single points and stock 73 351c.

Would a heatshield or heatwrap help?

Something like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010402

Jayson
[Image: 36319488731_8f2a376549_z.jpg]
73 Mach 1 Mustang
89 Dodge Shadow ES
94 Jeep Wrangler

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#8
Whatta ya got to lose.

[Image: 2rr7aiv.png]

Just cruising along minding our own business when BAM!!! The LAWS show up.
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#9
I don't recall many Ford starters having heat soak problems. It's more of a Chivvy thing I think.

Verify the integrity of your grounds... cable itself, battery to cable, cable to block, block to frame.
Then do the same for the hot wire, solenoid, etc.
No paint or rust...
I use a small steel butterfly brush and a wee bit of dielectric grease on mine.

My 5.0 had slow cranking for years, got worse with heat. Finally replaced the starter, with no improvement. Ground cable got so hot it darned near caught fire. Turned out being poor ground contact @ batt to block end. Looked spotless, but brushed and greased it... fixed.

Pete - MotoArts Decals and Signs
'71 Sportsroof 351C-4V/4-speed - FINALLY under construction - no, wait, on hold again...
'90 Mustang 7-Up 5.0 ragtop, rolling beater
'66 Sunbeam Tiger Mk.IA, survivor
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#10
MotoArts;100059 Wrote:I don't recall many Ford starters having heat soak problems. It's more of a Chivvy thing I think.

Verify the integrity of your grounds... cable itself, battery to cable, cable to block, block to frame.
Then do the same for the hot wire, solenoid, etc.
No paint or rust...
I use a small steel butterfly brush and a wee bit of dielectric grease on mine.

My 5.0 had slow cranking for years, got worse with heat. Finally replaced the starter, with no improvement. Ground cable got so hot it darned near caught fire. Turned out being poor ground contact @ batt to block end. Looked spotless, but brushed and greased it... fixed.

All of the grounds are new, but I'll check them anyway just to be sure.

Thanks guys for the responses.

Jayson
[Image: 36319488731_8f2a376549_z.jpg]
73 Mach 1 Mustang
89 Dodge Shadow ES
94 Jeep Wrangler

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