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Concours Restoration success rates
#11
I will add another two cents worth.
You will need a tremendous amount of room. You have to take the entire car apart and usually the cowl, floors and trunk out.
Your money and time is better spent finding a rust free car to start with. They are out there and are way cheaper than a pile of rust that takes forever to fix. You do need to invest in equipment for sure. Rotisserie is a must. You will need to spend days and weeks working on the bottom of the car and is much better done standing with good light.
Also take the car to frame shop before you do anything and have them put back to spec.
When replacing floors and such the car cannot be on the rotisserie needs to be on a floor cart or some kind of rack to keep the body square.
You should also have a separate room that you weld and grind in so sparks do not burn down garage or home.
I have a good friend that does usually 3 ground up restorations a year and works by himself most of the time. He does bring someone in for tear down and some lifting. For just the materials to do a full ground up it is in the $6,000 to $7,000 range. That is sand paper, filler, primer,  paint, detail paint, etc, etc. He tells the customer it is a time + material cost and will not do a firm up front quote. Usually between $60,000 and $100,000 for one car. I do not think any have ever sold for what is in them but his cars always win best paint and best at shows even on the national level.
He has had cars go to National shows and have zero points deducted on the car except for radial tires and Interstate battery.
You will also have to make yourself not do some areas too good, lol. Yes spending hundreds of hour on the inside of the floor pan to get perfect will never score you any points. Things that are seen or can be seen need your attention.
You will never be able to get 50% of what you put in the car back out unless a very special model.
I actually quit going to MCA shows years ago because they said lots of things on my original one owner 73 Mustang would have to be changed to do any better. They are a click that sets the rules and if you want to play their game you use their rules right or wrong.
Can be fun or can make you crazy.
I got my shop all done and ready and then my body is falling apart and cannot do anything.
David


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David
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#12
+1 on everything David said. Chuck
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#13
Thanks so much for the great responses! ..
My reasoning for the original post was to extract a consensus on how ya'll feel on the subject. After much reading of various threads on the forum I have become convinced of the high level of knowledge and experience many of you have concerning not just the car but also in the hobby as a whole.
While I do know my own capabilities as I have worked on cars for many years.. built many motorcycles, restorations were never a giant part of the deal. Hot rodding and racing mostly stock rides was the level I was most accustomed to. So in my limited experience I can only assume the gap between a restored driver of average results and a concours restoration is extremely wide. I just want to understand how much more difficult it really is and whether you all felt confident a home shop could actually pull it off.  
To what degree I can restore my car remains to be seen. Of course as you have made clear. the $$ involved is a huge limiting factor. To what level I am willing to go on that depends on a lot of factors personally. Time will tell. Capability wise, I am confident of my skill sets, and of my ability to learn new methods and skills. But more importantly my age and grudgingly learned experience allows me to see a little more clearly of the things I may not be capable of too...  ..  For myself I am trying to learn as much as possible so I don't make any major mistakes and make the restoration any more difficult that it appears it already is.
Your answers to my questions is a huge part of that and I appreciate the fact.  In my opinion this forum is a much a great asset in the endeavor as any other resource. Thanks!
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#14
Soonerbilz, glad you found the information you needed. Learning is always a key aspect to these endeavors. It sounds like you have a solid foundation of knowledge and experience turning wrenches. Money is a big factor no doubt. Keep in mind that you can still compete at a very high level in showing without having a six figure income. To also help in consideration concourse MCA judging does not focus on part numbers and look for OE sheet metal. With those considerations you are in the Thoroughbred category which in my opinion does requires significant money. Congrats to you for doing your homework first. Do the restoration to the degree you would like and always know this group is here to help out in any way we can.

BKDunha
72 Mach 1 H-Code (Concourse driven restoration)
67 S-Code Factory GT with 4-Spd

68 Mercury Cyclone (Pro-Street project)
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#15
It really comes down to how fussy you want to be and how well you take nitpicky criticism. Concours restorations are all about how the factory put things together - not how well you can refinish parts and assemble them. A couple of high volume factories with somewhat loose quality metrics, hundreds of inconsistent suppliers and a wide variety of finishes on what are supposed to be identical parts is what went into these cars at the beginning - that's what you are aiming for. Not the miles deep paint with flawless color matched engine compartment brackets.

Fussy starts at disassembly - note things like markings on bolt heads, bolt finishes, paint colors, shine, are there any markings on it, can you see any tooling marks, just everything. Where is there overspray, where does body color stop and black or slop grey begin? Date codes - oh my god date codes. You can have a new old stock wiper motor that is perfect in every way except for the (*&(^ date code stamped on the side. That's picking nits. Most smaller parts in the engine compartment, like brackets weren't spray painted, they were dipped. So you either need to learn how to make sprayed paint run juuuust right or have a couple of buckets of different shades and finishes of black paint to replicate what was done by the suppliers. Tags, labels, casting numbers, inspection markings, assembly markings, paint codes - it's endless.

So you really need to decide what you want, how you want to use it, and how hard you are willing to work for it. This is one of the reasons you hardly ever see plain Jane 6 cylinder 3 speeds with radio delete and dog dish hubcaps in concours competitions. It's so ungodly expensive and intense to take a 45 year old car to that level that any sane person would want to start with something special or rare. It's also why 118% of all Mustang Mach 1's and Boss Mustangs are still on the road - there is incentive to make something special out of what you are actually starting with (please don't do that by the way... at least not without being Very Up Front about the origin of the restoration). Concours cars are rarely driven, if ever. They get detailed, trailered, judged, trailered back and stowed in a cool, dark place until the next show.

I don't want to sound like I don't like concours restorations - I think they are amazing and they make great points of reference for the rest of us. I am in the middle of something near to that myself. I actually started with a plain Jane 6 cylinder, 3 speed '71 convertible that I bought back in 1980. I'm not restoring that car - I am building the car I want, which happens to be a car that Ford never actually sold. I am trying to make it as concours correct as I possibly can, which means I am trying to use proper finishes, but if I can't find exactly the right part with exactly the right date codes, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I don't plan to have the car formally judged when it is finished, but I would like to have some qualified judges take a look and tell me how I did. Then I'm gonna drive the piss out of it.

---
Mike
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#16
There's a really good forum devoted to concours-level restorations of Mustangs, although the 7123's don't get a lot of mention.  However, the details of how to refurbish, parts finish, painting and sealant applications are amazing...check it out:  www.concoursmustang.com

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#17
You can build a Resto Mod for half what a perfect restore costs and 99.9% of the people that look at it will not know the difference. It is an OCD thing to do a concourse correct car, lol. Those people need help and stay away from them, lol.
BTW who cares what the paint splotch colors were on the rods, valve springs and such adds no value just history. The only cars that should be there are originals. Only original once can never go back.
Good luck,
David


When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??
Tongue
David
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#18
It has been posted on the site before.  For those interested here are the MCA 71-73 Mustang Occasionally/Daily Driven and Concourse Driven and Trailered rules. It will give you an idea on what MCA considers "correct" when judged at an MCA sponsored show. Keep in mind there are always exceptions to the rules.


Attached Files
.pdf   MCAMustangRules-Occasional-DailyDriven.2016.pdf (Size: 381.19 KB / Downloads: 7)
.pdf   MCAMustangConcourse Trailered-Driven Rules71-73.2016.pdf (Size: 179.23 KB / Downloads: 4)

1973 H Code Convertible - Medium Copper Metallic - June 8, 1973, Built Ford Marketing Sales Vehicle
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#19
(07-26-2018, 06:51 AM)rackerm Wrote: It has been posted on the site before.  For those interested here are the MCA 71-73 Mustang Occasionally/Daily Driven and Concourse Driven and Trailered rules. It will give you an idea on what MCA considers "correct" when judged at an MCA sponsored show. Keep in mind there are always exceptions to the rules.

Wow! That's a wide selection of possible check point levels between the classes!
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#20
My dad sold a Boss 429 service block and heads to a customer doing a concourse restoration.

The car is a 100 percent / perfect / trophy winning / down to the smallest paint dab and is the most correct Boss 429 in existence.

No pistons in it.  No valves or valve springs. No clutch or pressure plate. No guts in the 4 speed.  No acid in the NOS - date correct battery  No fluids.........

It gets pushed out of it's heated and air conditioned trailer - gets a trophy - and gets push back on.  

We fooled around with MCA in Florida and just got tired of it.   20 years ago 71 - 73 got even less respect than they do now.

They used to have a big show at Cypress Gardens each year that my dad would take me to.
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