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Asa Jay's next engine build - 1971 Mach I Mustang, Open Road Racing
#1
Wrench 
Hi all,
 
I'm starting this thread to begin documenting my next 351C engine build and in the process, asking for guidance, recommendations, and experience.  My name is Asa Jay Laughton (pronounced Ace-uh, Jay, Lawton),  I live in the Spokane, Washington area (that's the East side of Washington next to Idaho, not the "other" Washington.)  Smile
 
I have an A.A.S in Automotive Technology (mostly unused as I went into a different profession).  I rebuilt a 351C as my class project in Engines during colledge.  That engine went into a 1973 Mustang fastback and a couple years later was transplanted into a 1971 Mach I.  It ran for many years, from about 1985 until 1999 and was an everyday driver through about 1993.
 
In about 2001, I rebuilt a new engine for the Mach I with a lot more bragging rights.  It featured a roller cam with the Crane roller conversion kit, a Crane stud-mount rocker conversion kit, full roller rockers, 4V quench heads, Pete Jackson quiet timing gear set, MPG windage tray and a few other goodies.  You can see details about that build here:
http://www.asajay.com/351rebuild/351rebuild.htm
 
Later, in about 2012, I pulled that engine from the Mach I, refreshed it and re-installed it in my 1973 DeTomaso Pantera for racing in the Silver State Classic Challenge (SSCC).  You can see more about that here:
http://teampanteraracing.com/index.php?o...temId=5096
 
I sold the Pantera in 2015 to another avid race driver who has since taken it to the next level.
 
This left me with the 1971 Mach I Mustang… without an engine.
 
I've collected a few complete engines over the past several years and I'm now involved in trying to get the Mach I back on the road to do more Silver State Classic Challenge open road races.  You can see more about that project here:
https://www.facebook.com/asajaysracingforautism
 
I'm a founding member of the DeTomaso email forum and know many in the Pantera world, including Mark Skwarek, Hugh Casey (rest in peace), Mike and Lori Drew, Gerry Romack, Dennis (Mad Dog) Antenucci and many, many others, some who have had their engine specs published on this and/or other forums.  I see Mark and Dennis at SSCC regularly and Gerry came out last year with his new engine from Dave McLain.  I had the privilege of sitting at the same table as Dan Jones at a POCA Fun Rally many years ago and have followed his 351C dyno project off-and-on since about the beginning.  I'm of the belief that Dan has more knowledge in his little finger than I have in my whole body.
 
 
With all that in mind…
I need to build a new 351C engine and I'm soliciting pointers.
 
Overall Goals:
  • 140 MPH minimum top-end during open road racing in a 1971 Mach I Mustang
  • Smooth -enough- idle to drive on the street to shows, out to dinner, etc. (a bit of rumpity-rump is okay, stalling isn't)
  • Fits under the stock RamAir hood of a 1971 Mach I
  • Can take advantage of the RamAir Intake system (minor mods to RamAir okay but no holes in the hood)
 
Details about other (non-engine) components:
  • Will be mated to a C6 auto transmission (yes, I understand a four-speed or other Auto-trans may be better, but I'm using a C6 to start with)
  • Specs on the parts used in the C6:
  • Ford Motorsport M-7398-C Wide Ratio Gear set,
  • Ford Motorsport M-7044-A Heavy Duty Clutch
  • Ford Motorsport M-7027-A famous "R" intermediate servo assembly,
  • Ford Motorsport M-1794-C6 tranny pan with integrated drain
  • Transgo Shift Kit
  • Built to Police Interceptor specs
  • Locally custom-rebuilt torque converter with approximate 1,800 stall speed
  • Stock Ford 9" rear end with 3:00 gearset  (I have a 2:99 available somewhere)
 
Engine goals:
  • I'm not "set" on this list of desired items for my build, it's just a starting point and I'm flexible
  • Minimum bore as possible (current block appears to be less than 0.005 wear but will need professional assessment)
  • I'd like to build a Stroker this time around
  • Solid roller cam (I may be willing to go hydraulic roller again)
  • Cam specs TBD
  • Full roller rockers
  • Aluminum heads (leaning toward TrickFlow 195 or 225)
  • I have a set of stock cast iron 4V quench heads (bare) that I could use
  • Armando T-pan for open road racing
  • MPG windage tray
  • Stock volume/pressure oil pump
  • Canton 2-quart oil accumulator
  • ACL main and rod bearings
  • Gear-drive timing set
  • Hooker Super-Competition 4V headers (this may need to change)
 
I'm looking at the specs used between the builds done for Mark Skwarek and Hugh Casey in these to forum postings:
From <http://www.the351cforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=577>
From <http://www.the351cforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=569>
 
 
Those were impressive builds and I want to do something very similar.  I've seen Mark's engine in action.  There is enough documented there to get me started.  What I -don't- readily know is where to get some of the parts or specs necessary.
  • Where do I go for a good stroker kit and what's in it, or do I source the parts separately?
  • Where do I get the best pistons?
  • What's the best cam profile to use for my use case?
  • What's the best intake that will fit under the hood?
 
I also have to select a local machine shop to do all the block work.  The last time I did this I had a friend who worked at a place but he's moved on so I have to find a new vendor.  I'll of course need to find one familiar with the 351C so they don't screw it up.
 
I really want to build this on my own (well, sans the machining part).  But, if it comes down to it, I'm not against sending it to Dave McLain because he comes so highly spoken of by many people.
 
There we have it.  I need to build this by September 2019 for that year's Silver State Classic Challenge.  Any and all ideas, pointers, recommendations and cautions are welcome.
 
Thank you,
Asa  Jay
 
-- this information may be found posted to more than one forum and/or email list --
 
 
 
  Reply
#2
Neither of those builds on the 351C Forum will work with your 1,800 rpm stall torque converter, especially the first one. The cams are likely to require 3,000 rpm, and higher stall torque converters. You'll also need a higher ratio rear end (lower numerically) than those cams are designed for, especially with a three speed automatic and wanting to go 140+ mph.

These threads might help you with cam and gearing selections
https://www.7173mustangs.com/showthread.php?tid=20664
https://www.7173mustangs.com/showthread....#pid208498
https://www.7173mustangs.com/showthread....#pid115406

A 408 stroker, with it's additional torque, will help you get there, but everything has to work together.

There have been several stroker builds discussed on our forum, you should be able to find them by searching. Here's a good recent one
https://www.7173mustangs.com/showthread.php?tid=31352



“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”
--Albert Einstein
  Reply
#3
Yes, I agree with you, the cams spec'd in those engines are not what's needed -exactly- in my case.  Panteras use a ZF 5-speed transmission; I'm going to use a C6.

Using your spreadsheet, I get 2,000 - 2,500 recommended TC stall.  I can't say mine is exactly 1,800, but I can say it worked very well with my last engine build (which wasn't a stroker, but it was pretty stout).  I can say I did have a small-diameter higher-stall TC to begin with and it was not as pleasant.  65 MPH on the freeway didn't get near the stall speed, so was useless for the kind of driving I do.  It was difficult getting it move until 3,000 rpm and I didn't like that.

Some calculations that I made earlier indicate I need to turn about 6,100 rpm to get to 140MPH (depending on the percent loss at full stall of the TC and parasitic losses of the trans/driveline/diff)

If I go with a 2.75:1 rear end, I begin to get back to a low rpm issue in freeway or downtown driving that puts the TC into less than optimal range.  I'm trying to get right on the edge of being best-of-both-worlds.  The 3.00:1 rear end, with 1:1 C6 output and the converter I have, gives me good driveability at the rpms needed for freeway driving.  Now I just need to spec the engine (cam/heads/intake/stroker) that will get me enough horsepower and torque to make a target top end of 140 MPH.

I'll admit I'm not smart about this stuff, so I'm looking for all the pointers I can get.

Thank you,
Asa  Jay
  Reply
#4
On a 351C 4V (closed chamber) I would think about a 408 stroker with dished pistons, around 10.5:1 static compression ratio, a 185°± advertised duration camshaft, intake valves closing around 68 - 70° ABDC should give a dynamic compression ratio of 8.5:1±, which would then let you run a 1,500 to 2,000 RPM stall TC.

At speed the torque converter doesn't operate at the same RPM input/output differential as it does at low speeds.

If you want to run the C6 I would think about adding a Gear Vendors overdrive to it. That will let you run a 3.50 rear end, and still have a final gear ratio of around 2.7:1 with a 0.78 OD ratio, which will get you the speed you're looking for, but still have plenty of acceleration, as well as being more pleasurable to drive around town. With the GV overdrive you can shift into overdrive in any gear.



“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”
--Albert Einstein
  Reply
#5
runninpony 
ZF - Zahnrad Fabrik German Transmission Manufacturer
 5- 5 Speed

Old Mustangs never die, they just go faster!
  Reply
#6
(08-31-2018, 11:51 PM)Don C Wrote: On a 351C 4V (closed chamber) I would think about a 408 stroker with dished pistons, around 10.5:1 static compression ratio, a 185°± advertised duration camshaft, intake valves closing around 68 - 70° ABDC should give a dynamic compression ratio of 8.5:1±, which would then let you run a 1,500 to 2,000 RPM stall TC.

At speed the torque converter doesn't operate at the same RPM input/output differential as it does at low speeds.

If you want to run the C6 I would think about adding a Gear Vendors overdrive to it. That will let you run a 3.50 rear end, and still have a final gear ratio of around 2.7:1 with a 0.78 OD ratio, which will get you the speed you're looking for, but still  have plenty of acceleration, as well as being more pleasurable to drive around town. With the GV overdrive you can shift into overdrive in any gear.

Agreed, I've been running my calculations with an understanding I could be losing as much as 10% from the converter.  So a speed of 6,100 rpm would be more like 5,500 into the transmission.

Changing subject, you've got me intrigued with the idea of an overdrive.  I didn't know there was such a readily available overdrive kit out there.  I've been reading Gear Vendors web site to learn more.  Getting an OD ratio would be a good thing, without sacrificing the low end driveability.

I know this whole thing is an exercise in compromises.  The wide-ratio gearset in the C6 gives me great first gear performance as-is, with my last build that approached 400HP.  I'll admit, I've owned my Mach I for over 30 years, but I know more about the Pantera I had for 20.  Getting back into the Mach I is proving a little painful.

Asa Jay
  Reply
#7
If you go with hydraulic lifters and even if solid be sure and check the clearances in the lifter bores. Many never look at this. With a wet lifter galley you can loose a lot of oil around the lifters if the clearance is excessive. Some bore them out and put bronze sleeves in. If you can find a mfg. of lifters that will work with you and grind the to an oversize dia. that will allow you to hone the bores out to fit the new lifter size. In this day and time difficult to find someone like that.
I worked in one of the old NASCAR shops in Asheville NC in the 60's & 70's and the lifter bores were one area my boss always stressed be right. Been too long I cannot give you correct clearance but would probably look at the Ford spec for the Boss 351 for suggestion.
The side oil 427 eliminated that issue and that is why Ford used it for racing applications. You need the oil in the crank bearings not into lifters with very little side load that need minimum oil supply.
When we were building an all out race engine we did not use head gaskets either. The heads were lapped to the block and no gasket used. Sprayed silver Rustolieum paint on and bolted them together. I have seen Pontiac 303 Trans Am engine go over 2,000 miles on the tract in Buck Bakers car and never gave an issue. The reason we did that was to get maximum compression which was usually up around 13 or 14 to one. Yes way to high unless you are using racing fuel so keep that in mind. I understand that when Bill Elliott was running 351 his was in the 15 to 16 to one range. I would suspect he used no gaskets either. The engine with that compression makes a totally different sound, very very crisp.
You might also consider doing some Cryogenic treatment to the engine components. Might talk with them about the C-6 components also. It does work and pretty much everything in a NASCAR or INDY car that is mechanical goes to Cryo treatment. Makes brake rotors last much longer in race usage. It totally redefines the grain structure of the metal. Works on guns also, lol.
I am sure you are going to convert the core plugs to screw in also or at least pin them with drive screws to prevent blowing them out.
It is interesting that you are using the C-6. I am currently working on a 72 Q code CJ Vert that came with C-6. I wanted to do some track days with the car and I do have a 4 speed set up I could use but wanted to keep car original since only 330 were built.
It currently has a 31 spline Detroit locker 9" that will have to go for any road race capability for sure. Might work for drifting or drag racing but not road racing.
I was also adding a 6 point roll cage and harness so that they do not limit my speed. I had hoped to have it ready for April 2019 for the 55 year anniversary celebration of the Mustang in Charlotte. They will have track day and run the Roval. NASCAR is actually going to run the Roval in an upcoming race I think in Sept. They run the road course in the infield then exit onto the oval at turn one then two and back stretch 3 & 4 and back to road course. It is a blast has lots of elevation changes on the road course. I was limited to 90 mph in a vert with no harness or cage last year. I might not get finished it looks like the MOM, Mustang Owner's Museum, is going to want my original 73 Mach 1 for display. I find out this month. If so I have to drop work on the 72 Q to get the Mach 1 cleaned up and ready for the grand opening in April 2019.
They are doing a pony run from Washington state down through California and across the U.S. to Charlotte for the celebration. You should make the trip. There were a couple that came from California last year.
Do keep us informed on what you end up with since I am doing about the same but with a vert..


When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??
Tongue
David
  Reply
#8
Hi David,
Thank you for the notes.  Some of your ideas, like the cryo treatments and not using a head gasket is far beyond my present goals, though interesting topics on their own. There is a pretty good thread here on oiling modifications that I continue to study.  I'm sure I'll be making some of them but will need to get the block to a good machinist before making final decisions on exactly what needs done.  The lifter bushings are a possibility.

It would be great to make the Pony run, except I don't think the car will be ready by then.  It's in a state of disrepair at the moment:

[Image: IMG_20180901_171845262.jpg]

I hope to have enough done and back on the road by September 2019.
Asa  Jay
  Reply
#9
(09-03-2018, 11:14 AM)asajay Wrote: Hi David,
Thank you for the notes.  Some of your ideas, like the cryo treatments and not using a head gasket is far beyond my present goals, though interesting topics on their own. There is a pretty good thread here on oiling modifications that I continue to study.  I'm sure I'll be making some of them but will need to get the block to a good machinist before making final decisions on exactly what needs done.  The lifter bushings are a possibility.

It would be great to make the Pony run, except I don't think the car will be ready by then.  It's in a state of disrepair at the moment:

[Image: IMG_20180901_171845262.jpg]

I hope to have enough done and back on the road by September 2019.
Asa  Jay

Looks like you are dumping the mice out, lol. A real back saver for sure.


When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??
Tongue
David
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