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71 - 73 mustangs
#11
(03-25-2019, 10:21 AM)Hi Mister 4x4 Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 05:39 PM)7173Vert Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 02:24 PM)MikeGriese Wrote: See the other thread today about Houston barn finds.

This is a chicken/egg problem from my perspective.  If 71-73 cars were more valuable, more 71-73 cars would be preserved.  The more preserved cars that are out there, the more people see them and some will want one, which leads to more demand, which leads to higher prices, which leaves more financial room to preserve cars.  A virtuous circle.

Forums like this are both invaluable and detrimental to this cycle.  Invaluable because of the combined experience of the members, willingness to share information, parts and experience makes it possible to attempt a restoration.  Detrimental because we tend to pick apart any ad or auction we see and point out how the seller is dreaming over their price.  That doesn't help lurkers to the forums open their wallets to buy distressed cars and try to restore or restomod them.  We convince them the cars are worthless and since this is an expert forum, they believe us.

Expert? Hmmmm. Those in the know on these car’s will generally lie low and not pick other cars apart...

I agree that there is a fine line between pointing out issues/detractors from vehicles for sale that could affect fair prices and 'picking apart an ad or auction.'  I admit to having been guilty of allowing personal opinions into comments when finding something to be particularly egregious about a car and/or seller's ads/descriptions, and that a lot of that kind of behavior can have a negative effect on how others perceive individual members - but that's not the sum of the whole, when talking about the site membership or value.  Just because someone doesn't like a particular comment made at some point in time isn't a good reason to throw out the site altogether.  The best thing to do is take it all with a grain of salt, read through the overcoating and see things for what they are.  If someone can't read a comment about a particular flaw being pointed out with a car without taking offense by the manner in which it's presented, well then maybe the problem lies with the reader themselves - which seems to be a declining trend with people in general these days, but I'm not going to dwell on that any further.

As to whether or not that's all 'detrimental' to the site or the '71-'73 Mustang scene, I tend to disagree.  In my opinion, Having counterpoint opinions regarding the things seen is better for the market because it usually helps potential uninformed buyers avoid trouble while buying these cars, and sometimes sends a message to the sellers (wanna-be flippers who jack up the prices, in other words) that maybe they need to be a little more realistic because there are resources available to debunk their fantastic stories.  Face it, most people out there are not very knowledgeable when it comes to the '71-'73s (the average non-enthusiast believes ALL '71-'73 models were "Mach 1s," after all, and "their buddy had one in high school.").  But, they know what they like... and why not help them avoid making a potentially bad decision?

Again, I don't think getting rude in the comments about any particular example is very helpful, but I'd rather have someone more familiar with these cars pointing out not-so-obvious issues before I buy, rather than finding out the hard way afterward (might've saved me a TON of money, time, and effort had I done more research and looking around before I bought mine, as a matter of fact).

"People in the know," clamming up and not offering their valuable insight (for the purpose of claiming some moral high ground, or whatever) is no different than endorsing the sellers trying to take advantage of those unwitting buyers.  Again, purely my opinion.

Another opinion... we all are entitled to them. People are also entitled to speak or not to,as they see fit. People in the know are generally willing to share their knowledge, their experiences, their opinion’s; if they feel it worthwhile to the discussion. If someone asks a direct question or request for help, it is usually addressed by someone in the know. When the opinion’s begin to get watered down with personal feelings or comments out in left field..., then yes, time to sit back and enjoy the view. My opinion, of corse.
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#12
I was trying to decide who to respond to, but then figured I'll just hit a few points...

The discussion on 71 being separated from later years because performance dropped, I don't really see that as being an important criteria for many people. The interest in late 70's-early 80's 4dr Impalas kind of boggles my mind, but it's there and they are happy with their cars. Which ties into something else about 'picking apart' cars. If those interested in a particular make or model keep downplaying cars because they are only a 6 cyl, or 302 or just a Grandé or anything less than a perfect (insert high dollar factory one of XX), then guess what happens when a potential enthusiast gets the idea that the only ones worth having are super rare or super fast or super whatever and they have no hope of affording one? They go look at something cheaper that does have a following or move on to a different hobby. You will not encourage interest in the affordable good cars that younger people get started on. That means the nice rust free Grandma driven H-code Grandé will languish until someone cuts it up to repair an old drag car that probably should be put out of its misery.
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#13
runninpony 
Let's not forget that thousands of cars a year getting shipped out of the country, I'm not saying they're all 71-73 but all brands.

71-73 Mustangs never die, they just go faster!
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#14
(03-24-2019, 02:24 PM)MikeGriese Wrote: See the other thread today about Houston barn finds.

This is a chicken/egg problem from my perspective.  If 71-73 cars were more valuable, more 71-73 cars would be preserved.  The more preserved cars that are out there, the more people see them and some will want one, which leads to more demand, which leads to higher prices, which leaves more financial room to preserve cars.  A virtuous circle.

Forums like this are both invaluable and detrimental to this cycle.  Invaluable because of the combined experience of the members, willingness to share information, parts and experience makes it possible to attempt a restoration.  Detrimental because we tend to pick apart any ad or auction we see and point out how the seller is dreaming over their price.  That doesn't help lurkers to the forums open their wallets to buy distressed cars and try to restore or restomod them.  We convince them the cars are worthless and since this is an expert forum, they believe us.

Mike, I 100% agree with your opinion regarding "invaluable and detrimental,"  and to your point a few almost seem to discount this opinion because you used the word "expert." I really wish the people on this great forum who continually downplay and take a negative slant on potential value increases in our cars would stop contributing in shunting it's growth in popularity. It only hurts all of us.  These cars are beautiful and badass!  Stop talking about why they aren't as nice as earlier Mustangs and telling people that your crystal ball shows no increase in value for these years...you most certainly are wrong.  They are a rare sight at shows and cruises and that is not bad for value, that is just one more reason for people to perceive them as cool.  

A premier shop in my area (Philadelphia Suburbs) has done quite a few, over the top restomods, of our 71-73 era in the past few years and they are absolutely growing in popularity. When I go to a cruise-in, I find the teen-20 something kids sometimes literally run over in flocks to check mine out. This seems to be occurring alot more frequently over the last 2 years or so. I also attend a monthly Exotics Coffee/Cruise-in and I always like to cruise in about halfway through (fashionably late) and every time atleast 7-15 of THOSE owners make a beeline to come over and see/chat about my 73 Mach. I'm not a flipper, I build everything I have ever owned to my liking and I am not afraid to be different and make changes to the not-as-important-to remain-#'s-matching-years. Those exotic guys have money, obviously, and love to talk about our years...a nice looking restomod appeals to their emotional memories and can deliver on performance and modern conveniences. If/when I ever sell my Mach, I will find the right buyer and he will pay a number most of you wouldn't believe. 

Encourage the young kids about our cars. Enthusiasm is contagious, unfortunately so is negativity. When someone is interested in our cars we need to throw gas on their interest!  I owned a 1970 Bronco for 22 years because I thought it was cool...everyone now thinks they're cool and the $auction$ #'s reflect the change in public interest. 71-73 Mustang's time will come, I believe it is already growing.

You all need to hear this...THERE IS INTEREST IN OUR CARS!...stop stifling it with your old outdated opinions. Our cars are hot...it might just be you that is not. You own an early seventies friggin cool ass Muscle Car, be proud of it!

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! thumb

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#15
(05-05-2019, 01:49 PM)EBSTANG Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 02:24 PM)MikeGriese Wrote: See the other thread today about Houston barn finds.

This is a chicken/egg problem from my perspective.  If 71-73 cars were more valuable, more 71-73 cars would be preserved.  The more preserved cars that are out there, the more people see them and some will want one, which leads to more demand, which leads to higher prices, which leaves more financial room to preserve cars.  A virtuous circle.

Forums like this are both invaluable and detrimental to this cycle.  Invaluable because of the combined experience of the members, willingness to share information, parts and experience makes it possible to attempt a restoration.  Detrimental because we tend to pick apart any ad or auction we see and point out how the seller is dreaming over their price.  That doesn't help lurkers to the forums open their wallets to buy distressed cars and try to restore or restomod them.  We convince them the cars are worthless and since this is an expert forum, they believe us.

Mike, I 100% agree with your opinion regarding "invaluable and detrimental,"  and to your point a few almost seem to discount this opinion because you used the word "expert." I really wish the people on this great forum who continually downplay and take a negative slant on potential value increases in our cars would stop contributing in shunting it's growth in popularity. It only hurts all of us.  These cars are beautiful and badass!  Stop talking about why they aren't as nice as earlier Mustangs and telling people that your crystal ball shows no increase in value for these years...you most certainly are wrong.  They are a rare sight at shows and cruises and that is not bad for value, that is just one more reason for people to perceive them as cool.  

A premier shop in my area (Philadelphia Suburbs) has done quite a few, over the top restomods, of our 71-73 era in the past few years and they are absolutely growing in popularity. When I go to a cruise-in, I find the teen-20 something kids sometimes literally run over in flocks to check mine out. This seems to be occurring alot more frequently over the last 2 years or so. I also attend a monthly Exotics Coffee/Cruise-in and I always like to cruise in about halfway through (fashionably late) and every time atleast 7-15 of THOSE owners make a beeline to come over and see/chat about my 73 Mach. I'm not a flipper, I build everything I have ever owned to my liking and I am not afraid to be different and make changes to the not-as-important-to remain-#'s-matching-years. Those exotic guys have money, obviously, and love to talk about our years...a nice looking restomod appeals to their emotional memories and can deliver on performance and modern conveniences. If/when I ever sell my Mach, I will find the right buyer and he will pay a number most of you wouldn't believe. 

Encourage the young kids about our cars. Enthusiasm is contagious, unfortunately so is negativity. When someone is interested in our cars we need to throw gas on their interest!  I owned a 1970 Bronco for 22 years because I thought it was cool...everyone now thinks they're cool and the $auction$ #'s reflect the change in public interest. 71-73 Mustang's time will come, I believe it is already growing.

You all need to hear this...THERE IS INTEREST IN OUR CARS!...stop stifling it with your old outdated opinions. Our cars are hot...it might just be you that is not. You own an early seventies friggin cool ass Muscle Car, be proud of it!

The perceived value of something like our cars is what other people are willing to pay for it.  It's not much different than commodities speculators jacking up or dumping prices based on what they believe the market value should be on various things like oil, livestock, etc.  That's kind of what's happened to the other collector cars over the years - '69 Mustang sportroofs prices are ridiculous - why?  Because everybody wants one, being one of the iconic, most well-loved model year designs (forget about whether it's a Boss or not).  Face it - our favorite models have had an uphill struggle since Day One thanks to the critics and media of the time calling them 'bloated' and all sorts of other unflattering things over the years.  When most people see them now, much of that is out the window, as typically observed at local car shows.  But unfortunately, that's not a market indicator - the biggest being the televised auctions along with more expert speculators assigning values to the various models and conditions they're found to be in.  That plays into the hands of the wanna-be flippers who jack up the prices for lesser valued specimens using higher valued numbers from the rare and more collectible models.

Who here would pay upward of $5-7K for a rusted-out H-Code Mach 1 with a seized engine and 90% unrestorable interior.  Nobody, I'm sure... not even me.  But that's what Boss 351s in the same condition are going for - with or without said seized engine.  And that's what the wanna-be flippers are hoping for.

This site is home to arguably the largest collection of '71-'73 enthusiasts.  The members are from all skill, experience, and knowledge levels, ranging from people who know almost nothing about the vehicles, to expert level preservationalists, restorers, restomodders, maintainers, and even some who've worked in the auto industry.  Almost all walks of life, cultures, countries, and experience levels are represented here.  All opinions are valued, even those aren't as positive and others, short of being personally offensive to others... and spammers - they're not welcome, either. Wink

At the end of the day however, a few negative comments about an overpriced Craigslist ad where the seller has literally made stuff up about the car to command a higher price is going to have Zero impact on the market value of the next batch of Craigslist ad or Barrett-Jackson offerings.

Eric

[Image: mach1sig2.gif]
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#16
(05-05-2019, 04:24 PM)Mister 4x4 Wrote:
(05-05-2019, 01:49 PM)EBSTANG Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 02:24 PM)MikeGriese Wrote: See the other thread today about Houston barn finds.

This is a chicken/egg problem from my perspective.  If 71-73 cars were more valuable, more 71-73 cars would be preserved.  The more preserved cars that are out there, the more people see them and some will want one, which leads to more demand, which leads to higher prices, which leaves more financial room to preserve cars.  A virtuous circle.

Forums like this are both invaluable and detrimental to this cycle.  Invaluable because of the combined experience of the members, willingness to share information, parts and experience makes it possible to attempt a restoration.  Detrimental because we tend to pick apart any ad or auction we see and point out how the seller is dreaming over their price.  That doesn't help lurkers to the forums open their wallets to buy distressed cars and try to restore or restomod them.  We convince them the cars are worthless and since this is an expert forum, they believe us.

Mike, I 100% agree with your opinion regarding "invaluable and detrimental,"  and to your point a few almost seem to discount this opinion because you used the word "expert." I really wish the people on this great forum who continually downplay and take a negative slant on potential value increases in our cars would stop contributing in shunting it's growth in popularity. It only hurts all of us.  These cars are beautiful and badass!  Stop talking about why they aren't as nice as earlier Mustangs and telling people that your crystal ball shows no increase in value for these years...you most certainly are wrong.  They are a rare sight at shows and cruises and that is not bad for value, that is just one more reason for people to perceive them as cool.  

A premier shop in my area (Philadelphia Suburbs) has done quite a few, over the top restomods, of our 71-73 era in the past few years and they are absolutely growing in popularity. When I go to a cruise-in, I find the teen-20 something kids sometimes literally run over in flocks to check mine out. This seems to be occurring alot more frequently over the last 2 years or so. I also attend a monthly Exotics Coffee/Cruise-in and I always like to cruise in about halfway through (fashionably late) and every time atleast 7-15 of THOSE owners make a beeline to come over and see/chat about my 73 Mach. I'm not a flipper, I build everything I have ever owned to my liking and I am not afraid to be different and make changes to the not-as-important-to remain-#'s-matching-years. Those exotic guys have money, obviously, and love to talk about our years...a nice looking restomod appeals to their emotional memories and can deliver on performance and modern conveniences. If/when I ever sell my Mach, I will find the right buyer and he will pay a number most of you wouldn't believe. 

Encourage the young kids about our cars. Enthusiasm is contagious, unfortunately so is negativity. When someone is interested in our cars we need to throw gas on their interest!  I owned a 1970 Bronco for 22 years because I thought it was cool...everyone now thinks they're cool and the $auction$ #'s reflect the change in public interest. 71-73 Mustang's time will come, I believe it is already growing.

You all need to hear this...THERE IS INTEREST IN OUR CARS!...stop stifling it with your old outdated opinions. Our cars are hot...it might just be you that is not. You own an early seventies friggin cool ass Muscle Car, be proud of it!

The perceived value of something like our cars is what other people are willing to pay for it.  It's not much different than commodities speculators jacking up or dumping prices based on what they believe the market value should be on various things like oil, livestock, etc.  That's kind of what's happened to the other collector cars over the years - '69 Mustang sportroofs prices are ridiculous - why?  Because everybody wants one, being one of the iconic, most well-loved model year designs (forget about whether it's a Boss or not).  Face it - our favorite models have had an uphill struggle since Day One thanks to the critics and media of the time calling them 'bloated' and all sorts of other unflattering things over the years.  When most people see them now, much of that is out the window, as typically observed at local car shows.  But unfortunately, that's not a market indicator - the biggest being the televised auctions along with more expert speculators assigning values to the various models and conditions they're found to be in.  That plays into the hands of the wanna-be flippers who jack up the prices for lesser valued specimens using higher valued numbers from the rare and more collectible models.

Who here would pay upward of $5-7K for a rusted-out H-Code Mach 1 with a seized engine and 90% unrestorable interior.  Nobody, I'm sure... not even me.  But that's what Boss 351s in the same condition are going for - with or without said seized engine.  And that's what the wanna-be flippers are hoping for.

This site is home to arguably the largest collection of '71-'73 enthusiasts.  The members are from all skill, experience, and knowledge levels, ranging from people who know almost nothing about the vehicles, to expert level preservationalists, restorers, restomodders, maintainers, and even some who've worked in the auto industry.  Almost all walks of life, cultures, countries, and experience levels are represented here.  All opinions are valued, even those aren't as positive and others, short of being personally offensive to others... and spammers - they're not welcome, either. Wink

At the end of the day however, a few negative comments about an overpriced Craigslist ad where the seller has literally made stuff up about the car to command a higher price is going to have Zero impact on the market value of the next batch of Craigslist ad or Barrett-Jackson offerings.


...personally, I can't ever finish reading a post about how someone's car is inaccurate as it makes me just fall asleep. I do sincerely hope I don't offend anyone with my opinions of whatever we're talking about on my favorite go-to forum. I care about all of you but I don't give 2 shats about being politically correct because that's no fun. Eric, I love ya buddy but you lost me at "Face it..." My head hit my desk.  Shootself

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! thumb

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#17
Gotcha Man - I do tend to prattle on, I suppose.  I'm still working on that 'brevity' thing our last Group Commander mentioned.   whistling

I too, am happy for the interest in our cars, and yes - we do own some of the most bad-ass muscle cars ever made (most everybody I know gets a little sparkly-eyed when I say, "Mach 1," after all).

I just think unwarranted inflation based on deceit is worse for our niche than the higher numbers behind the dollar sign.


There - how's that for brevity?   rofl

Eric

[Image: mach1sig2.gif]
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#18
(05-06-2019, 08:57 AM)Mister 4x4 Wrote: Gotcha Man - I do tend to prattle on, I suppose.  I'm still working on that 'brevity' thing our last Group Commander mentioned.   whistling

I too, am happy for the interest in our cars, and yes - we do own some of the most bad-ass muscle cars ever made (most everybody I know gets a little sparkly-eyed when I say, "Mach 1," after all).

I just think unwarranted inflation based on deceit is worse for our niche than the higher numbers behind the dollar sign.


There - how's that for brevity?   rofl

...when is inflation warranted?  You create desire by appealing to emotion. Desire drives prices on everything that exists. People who willfully deceive others will always have their day. Let's just focus on what makes our cars great as that can only help!   thumb

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! thumb

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#19
See?  That's why I use a lot of words, because my 'brevity' still sucks.  By "unwarranted inflation based on deceit," I was talking about all the wanna-be flippers demanding Boss 351 prices for ratted out 302 sportsroofs. Wink  whistling

I think we're on the same sheet here, though.  thumb

Eric

[Image: mach1sig2.gif]
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