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71 - 73 mustangs
#1
I was in AZ recently for a vacation.

While in Tucson, there happened to be a local Mustang club show with about 350 - 400 cars. Some really nice 60's ones, some original looking and others resto-mod style. Only 1 that was a 73 but was a nice resto-mod.

The next week, coincidentally there was the Mecum auction in Phoenix with about ~2000 or more cars. Again, only 1 that was a 73 that sold for about $13K.

Where are all the 71 - 73's??? Are they that rare or just not as desirable as the 60's and 70 ones? As the earlier years disappear, are the 71 - 73 cars destined to become more collectable?

Thanks for any thoughts!
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#2
See the other thread today about Houston barn finds.

This is a chicken/egg problem from my perspective. If 71-73 cars were more valuable, more 71-73 cars would be preserved. The more preserved cars that are out there, the more people see them and some will want one, which leads to more demand, which leads to higher prices, which leaves more financial room to preserve cars. A virtuous circle.

Forums like this are both invaluable and detrimental to this cycle. Invaluable because of the combined experience of the members, willingness to share information, parts and experience makes it possible to attempt a restoration. Detrimental because we tend to pick apart any ad or auction we see and point out how the seller is dreaming over their price. That doesn't help lurkers to the forums open their wallets to buy distressed cars and try to restore or restomod them. We convince them the cars are worthless and since this is an expert forum, they believe us.

---
Mike
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#3
My personal opinion is that the values of 71-73 Mustangs will go up. I'm not sure that it is because the earlier ones are disappearing per se, as in, going to the scrapyards. Car guys are always looking for projects, and our 71-73s are prime material for either a restoration or a hot rod. These cars are pre-computers, most aren't bound by smog equipment or too many laws and regulations. In the automotive world, things are, and have been changing fast. Many enthusiasts find the 65 through 70 models monetarily out of reach, but most 71-73s are still within one's pocketbook to aquire, and, with a little love, are just as cool .
The Saginaw steering box used from 71 on is vastly superior to the push-pull power steering used from 65 thru 70, and can be rebuilt to almost any hi-performance ratio desired . The 9" rear end which comes in most, if not all of our cars, is one of the best in the entire industry. Engine- wise, there are scads of custom and hi performance parts available for the 302. The 351 c in 2v, 4v, and Boss versions are great power and generally underated. The 429 in '71, while not the Boss 429 exotica, is just as apt to be a strong dragstrip performer.
Looks-wise, they are different from what Ford had offered in previous years, which makes them not a "me too" car.
As far as why you don't see more of them,...……..I've been saying that about most ALL of the cool muscle cars that used to run around....where are all of the El-Caminos, AMXs, Road Runners, Stingrays, and such. People USED to drive them everyday. Now, because of value, a secure place to park at work, rising cost of gas, being able to know a garage with any mechanics that might know anything about these cars when you need them, I guess for the most part, all of the older cars are still driveable, but now are simply a sunday go-for-a-drive, or carshow driver. They ARE out there though, tucked away.
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#4
(03-24-2019, 02:24 PM)MikeGriese Wrote: See the other thread today about Houston barn finds.

This is a chicken/egg problem from my perspective.  If 71-73 cars were more valuable, more 71-73 cars would be preserved.  The more preserved cars that are out there, the more people see them and some will want one, which leads to more demand, which leads to higher prices, which leaves more financial room to preserve cars.  A virtuous circle.

Forums like this are both invaluable and detrimental to this cycle.  Invaluable because of the combined experience of the members, willingness to share information, parts and experience makes it possible to attempt a restoration.  Detrimental because we tend to pick apart any ad or auction we see and point out how the seller is dreaming over their price.  That doesn't help lurkers to the forums open their wallets to buy distressed cars and try to restore or restomod them.  We convince them the cars are worthless and since this is an expert forum, they believe us.

Expert? Hmmmm. Those in the know on these car’s will generally lie low and not pick other cars apart...
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#5
I just think it is funny how the Shiny Used Car dealers on ebay price the cars to the moon. I bet they paid 50% of the asking price for them. Most have had rattle can restore under the car and hood.
Picking them apart is not putting them down. It is trying to educate the new comers to this model what to look for and what is correct. Yes an all out resto mod is just parts and pieces that someone likes. But when someone posts an ad and they state that it is original and restored and it really is not. That needs to be pointed out to those looking for a correct car.
There are going to be items on my 73 that are not right. I am not going to spend a fortune for the correct parts or NOS parts to make it 100%. It will show people how an original body and paint job looked like coming from the factory and how an original interior should look.
The body has dozens of dents coming from the inside out so not door dings. They are factory defects that these cars had lots of. Panels do not align stripes don't wrap around edges.
That is where I think the car hobby has gone wrong. Most try to make them perfect, flawless paint jobs welded up door gaps and perfect panels which never never came from the factory.
There was even a code Ford used for Show Cars. When the body shop saw that code they did a little extra work and got better paint jobs. They were usually painted in their specialty shop like a six digit Special Paint and Trim car was.
At most shows people ask me what year my 73 vert is because they have never seen one before. Like stated at the beginning of this thread. I was the only 71 - 73 at the Charlotte Mustang meet last year.
The early Mustangs were much simpler cars for sure. If you have ever taken both apart there are probably half the parts in a 65 as in a 73. It is much easier to restore a 65 than an 71 - 73 also.
Going to weigh my 73 Mach 1 on the way to Charlotte. My friend that restores cars was telling me that his dad's 65 GTO that is bone stock only weights 3,200 lbs. I bet a 73 will be close to 3,800.
Going to be difficult to sway people over to the 71 - 73 not many young people looking to get into the car hobby it seems. I posted an ad on craigslist for months offering free use of garage space to some young person wanting to learn cars. ZERO takers. Too busy playing computer games.
Like I have said in the past. How many of you want a Model A or a Model T? Not very many. Neat cars and part of history but not part of your growing up so you do not want one. Same with the 71 - 73.


When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??
Tongue
David
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#6
(03-25-2019, 08:58 AM)Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs Wrote: I just think it is funny how the Shiny Used Car dealers on ebay price the cars to the moon. I bet they paid 50% of the asking price for them. Most have had rattle can restore under the car and hood.
Picking them apart is not putting them down. It is trying to educate the new comers to this model what to look for and what is correct. Yes an all out resto mod is just parts and pieces that someone likes. But when someone posts an ad and they state that it is original and restored and it really is not. That needs to be pointed out to those looking for a correct car.
There are going to be items on my 73 that are not right. I am not going to spend a fortune for the correct parts or NOS parts to make it 100%. It will show people how an original body and paint job looked like coming from the factory and how an original interior should look.
The body has dozens of dents coming from the inside out so not door dings. They are factory defects that these cars had lots of. Panels do not align stripes don't wrap around edges.
That is where I think the car hobby has gone wrong. Most try to make them perfect, flawless paint jobs welded up door gaps and perfect panels which never never came from the factory.
There was even a code Ford used for Show Cars. When the body shop saw that code they did a little extra work and got better paint jobs. They were usually painted in their specialty shop like a six digit Special Paint and Trim car was.
At most shows people ask me what year my 73 vert is because they have never seen one before. Like stated at the beginning of this thread. I was the only 71 - 73 at the Charlotte Mustang meet last year.
The early Mustangs were much simpler cars for sure. If you have ever taken both apart there are probably half the parts in a 65 as in a 73. It is much easier to restore a 65 than an 71 - 73 also.
Going to weigh my 73 Mach 1 on the way to Charlotte. My friend that restores cars was telling me that his dad's 65 GTO that is bone stock only weights 3,200 lbs. I bet a 73 will be close to 3,800.
Going to be difficult to sway people over to the 71 - 73 not many young people looking to get into the car hobby it seems. I posted an ad on craigslist for months offering free use of garage space to some young person wanting to learn cars. ZERO takers. Too busy playing computer games.
Like I have said in the past. How many of you want a Model A or a Model T? Not very many. Neat cars and part of history but not part of your growing up so you do not want one. Same with the 71 - 73.

You are entitled to this same opinion, again...
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#7
Your observations goo far deeper than most will surmise! Having lived in AZ for 13 years and observing "car patterns" through out the US I will bring up some points THAT DON'T SUPPORT -lack of interest !!!

The desert southwest, allows for both longer life of cars (any car) - so your 50/60's cars lasted longer and were "passed on" eliminating the need for new models due to RUST attrition . Combine that with the social economic factors of that area (at LEAST Tucson) and the above year cars -were retained in use.

Another wild card is that Cities with AFB (Davis Montham in Tucson) meant that there was a proliferation of hot rods. But the 18 year old wasn't in a NEW 1971 Mustang (to get to base) rather a USED 60's car. Decreases in the service men then broke the car cycle seen for decades before.

When you look at "areas of growth" in the US, Tucson isn't like Phoenix. In those cities you can see car sales happened EVEN during what was a recession in other parts of the country. Seattle in the late 80's with Boeing and Microsoft allowed for many more car sales than say Philadelphia.

Like it or not the 71-73 was viewed by the "masses" as NOT AS NICE a design as the earlier cars! They also had the LEAST amount of aftermarket parts (for repair) , until recently. MANY were just crushed - as the import/smaller car times were in full swing. (didn't we all know someone with a Celica?)

AS FOR what was at Mecum AZ - I view that more a "we are going to have an event in BJ back yard" /lets test the waters thing for Dana! It wasn't a full blown Mecum event (like FL) IMO. It is almost like - then DON'T want to be the 3 week in Jan (like everyone else). The other thing on filling a docket is you can only have so many lots, have some many sellers to draw from AND it is filled to enhance the overall flavor or a sale.

Finally (and you are going to hate this)........1971 cars (all makes) should be separated from the 1972/73 (low compression /emission laden) cars- when talking about collectability and value IMO! Talk to a 72 Chevelle owner about 71 vs 72. (same goes for a 442 or Camaro)

Mark
P.S. The statement of "not as nice" as the earlier Mustangs , is also what allow MANY to "stock pile" 71-73 cars as they were becoming derelict in the 80's. As I travel the country for cars today - seems 71-73 owners are like herders (they have FLOCKS of them)
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#8
(03-24-2019, 05:39 PM)7173Vert Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 02:24 PM)MikeGriese Wrote: See the other thread today about Houston barn finds.

This is a chicken/egg problem from my perspective.  If 71-73 cars were more valuable, more 71-73 cars would be preserved.  The more preserved cars that are out there, the more people see them and some will want one, which leads to more demand, which leads to higher prices, which leaves more financial room to preserve cars.  A virtuous circle.

Forums like this are both invaluable and detrimental to this cycle.  Invaluable because of the combined experience of the members, willingness to share information, parts and experience makes it possible to attempt a restoration.  Detrimental because we tend to pick apart any ad or auction we see and point out how the seller is dreaming over their price.  That doesn't help lurkers to the forums open their wallets to buy distressed cars and try to restore or restomod them.  We convince them the cars are worthless and since this is an expert forum, they believe us.

Expert? Hmmmm. Those in the know on these car’s will generally lie low and not pick other cars apart...

I agree that there is a fine line between pointing out issues/detractors from vehicles for sale that could affect fair prices and 'picking apart an ad or auction.'  I admit to having been guilty of allowing personal opinions into comments when finding something to be particularly egregious about a car and/or seller's ads/descriptions, and that a lot of that kind of behavior can have a negative effect on how others perceive individual members - but that's not the sum of the whole, when talking about the site membership or value.  Just because someone doesn't like a particular comment made at some point in time isn't a good reason to throw out the site altogether.  The best thing to do is take it all with a grain of salt, read through the overcoating and see things for what they are.  If someone can't read a comment about a particular flaw being pointed out with a car without taking offense by the manner in which it's presented, well then maybe the problem lies with the reader themselves - which seems to be a declining trend with people in general these days, but I'm not going to dwell on that any further.

As to whether or not that's all 'detrimental' to the site or the '71-'73 Mustang scene, I tend to disagree.  In my opinion, Having counterpoint opinions regarding the things seen is better for the market because it usually helps potential uninformed buyers avoid trouble while buying these cars, and sometimes sends a message to the sellers (wanna-be flippers who jack up the prices, in other words) that maybe they need to be a little more realistic because there are resources available to debunk their fantastic stories.  Face it, most people out there are not very knowledgeable when it comes to the '71-'73s (the average non-enthusiast believes ALL '71-'73 models were "Mach 1s," after all, and "their buddy had one in high school.").  But, they know what they like... and why not help them avoid making a potentially bad decision?

Again, I don't think getting rude in the comments about any particular example is very helpful, but I'd rather have someone more familiar with these cars pointing out not-so-obvious issues before I buy, rather than finding out the hard way afterward (might've saved me a TON of money, time, and effort had I done more research and looking around before I bought mine, as a matter of fact).

"People in the know," clamming up and not offering their valuable insight (for the purpose of claiming some moral high ground, or whatever) is no different than endorsing the sellers trying to take advantage of those unwitting buyers.  Again, purely my opinion.

Eric

[Image: mach1sig2.gif]
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#9
(03-25-2019, 09:34 AM)SVO2SCJ Wrote: Your observations goo far deeper than most will surmise!    Having lived in AZ for 13 years and observing "car patterns" through out the US I will bring up some points THAT DON'T SUPPORT -lack of interest !!!

The desert southwest, allows for both longer life of cars (any car)  - so your 50/60's cars lasted longer and were "passed on" eliminating the need for new models due to RUST attrition .   Combine that with the social economic factors of that area (at LEAST Tucson) and the above year cars -were retained in use.  

Another wild card is that Cities with AFB (Davis Montham in Tucson) meant that there was a proliferation of hot rods.  But the 18 year old wasn't in a NEW 1971 Mustang (to get to base) rather a USED 60's car.    Decreases in the service men then broke the car cycle seen for decades before.

When you look at "areas of growth" in the US, Tucson isn't like Phoenix.  In those cities you can see  car sales happened EVEN during what was a recession in other parts of the country.     Seattle in the late 80's with Boeing and Microsoft allowed for many more car sales than say Philadelphia.

Like it or not the 71-73 was viewed by the "masses" as NOT AS NICE a design as the earlier cars!  They also had the LEAST amount of aftermarket parts (for repair) , until recently.  MANY were just crushed - as the import/smaller car times were in full swing.   (didn't we all know someone with a Celica?)

AS FOR what was at Mecum AZ - I view that more a "we are going to have an event in BJ back yard" /lets test the waters thing for Dana!   It wasn't a full blown Mecum event (like FL) IMO.  It is almost like - then DON'T want to be the 3 week in Jan (like everyone else).   The other thing on filling a docket is you can only have so many lots, have some many sellers to draw from AND it is filled to enhance the overall flavor or a sale.  

Finally (and you are going to hate this)........1971 cars (all makes) should be separated from the 1972/73 (low compression /emission laden) cars- when talking about collectability and value IMO!    Talk to a 72 Chevelle owner about 71 vs 72.  (same goes for a 442 or Camaro)

Mark
P.S.  The statement of "not as nice" as the earlier Mustangs , is also what allow MANY to "stock pile" 71-73 cars as they were becoming derelict in the 80's.  As I travel the country for cars today - seems 71-73 owners are like herders (they have FLOCKS of them)

"Finally (and you are going to hate this)........1971 cars (all makes) should be separated from the 1972/73 (low compression /emission laden) cars- when talking about collectability and value IMO! Talk to a 72 Chevelle owner about 71 vs 72. (same goes for a 442 or Camaro)"
  Chevy, and the rest of GM, lowered compression in 1971 model year and published HP and TQ for both rating methods.
http://www.superchevy.com/features/sucp-...-brochure/ So for GM, and some Mopars, the dividing line year should be 1970? But to your point, many in the market do make the distinction you suggested. Chuck
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#10
SVO2SCJ:

'….Finally (and you are going to hate this)........1971 cars (all makes) should be separated from the 1972/73 (low compression /emission laden) cars- when talking about collectability and value IMO!    Talk to a 72 Chevelle owner about 71 vs 72.  (same goes for a 442 or Camaro)'



___________

I see it a little differently (I'm both a '71 and '72 Mustang owner), while performance and muscle started declining after 1971, it wasn't gone altogether. You are correct about compression drops (even no big block offerings in the Mustang for '72-'73), but it's not as if V8s were gone. Let's not forget examples like the Trans Am Super Duty, or hitting closer to home, the more desirable 351 HO or even a 351 Cobra Jet...all offered after 1971.  IMO, some of the musclecars that carried on into the early 70's had the bones (if not compression) that could rekindle earlier year performance with a few upgrades. Cars like Chevelles, Challengers, Camaros and Mustangs kept their basic body style for a bit after 1971, and many offered the same engines (albeit with lower compression and/or power).  I think knowledgeable buyers already know about the '70s gas crisis, compression drops and the change from GROSS to NET horsepower ratings. 

It's been my understanding that the last year offering of a specific generation/model maintains a certain collectability and value as 'the last of its kind' so to speak, for example a '73 Mach 1 351C.  The way I see it, while there are some minor visual changes, various horsepower levels, and options offered between '71-'73 Mustangs, they are, without a doubt, the same "family" and unique and collectable in their own way from the earlier classics.
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