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429 TJ cam & rocker combo
#1
Hey all, long story short, I removed my water pump from the used 429 motor sitting in the car because it was leaking from the weep hole on the bottom when I went to fill her up with fluid. Took the water pump off and found this:


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When I took off the pump I broke one of the bolts going from the pump through the cover and into the block Angry. Then I decided, well I better take off the timing cover because this looks pretty terrible plus I need to fix this broken bolt. I started taking the timing cover off and after an hour of prying it off the rusted stuck bolt, I ended up cracking it (it was the only way it was going to come off!).


.jpg   IMG_8725.JPG (Size: 126.91 KB / Downloads: 132)

Upon looking at the timing chain I noticed it was pretty loose. Now I want to replace that but since I'm in it this far, I figured hell lets throw a cam in it and since I'm doing that I might as well replace the rockers with rollers. (By the way, I am planning on doing the cam with heads still on the car. I also want to know if this CAN be done. I was advised it can by a reputable source)

The cam I am initially thinking of going with is this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k3500 . Does this look like a good cam for a street application and does anyone know the correct roller rockers to use to match this engine application? I started looking up roller rockers and was overwhelmed with all the different options (stud type, etc). Not sure where to start...Does anyone know?
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#2
afeng79;242141 Wrote:Hey all, long story short, I removed my water pump from the used 429 motor sitting in the car because it was leaking from the weep hole on the bottom when I went to fill her up with fluid. Took the water pump off and found this:





When I took off the pump I broke one of the bolts going from the pump through the cover and into the block Angry. Then I decided, well I better take off the timing cover because this looks pretty terrible plus I need to fix this broken bolt. I started taking the timing cover off and after an hour of prying it off the rusted stuck bolt, I ended up cracking it (it was the only way it was going to come off!).



Upon looking at the timing chain I noticed it was pretty loose. Now I want to replace that but since I'm in it this far, I figured hell lets throw a cam in it and since I'm doing that I might as well replace the rockers with rollers. (By the way, I am planning on doing the cam with heads still on the car. I also want to know if this CAN be done. I was advised it can by a reputable source)

The cam I am initially thinking of going with is this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k3500 . Does this look like a good cam for a street application and does anyone know the correct roller rockers to use to match this engine application? I started looking up roller rockers and was overwhelmed with all the different options (stud type, etc). Not sure where to start...Does anyone know?

The K3500 cam from Summit is a generic RV type cam that is maybe one step up from stock. It will work with your stock valve train. Depending on what the rest of your combo is like and what your goals are there may be better choices out there. The cam swap can be done with the engine in the car but the radiator, grille and obviously the intake manifold must be removed. Make sure to use new lifters and plenty of cam lube and use a high zinc content break in oil to run the cam in. If you are still running 40 year old valve springs you may wish to consider changing those out as well.

Roller rockers at this performance level are frankly IMO a waste of money. If you insist on having them some versions work with the stock bottle neck rocker studs and some don't. You will need to research this. Also, not all rockers that are labeled as being for the 429/460 application have the correct geometry. The Crane Gold do. They are pricey.

Make sure you use a non-smog "straight up" timing set. These are pre 72 application or for any late model fuel injected application. If you use a double roller set you may not be able to reinstall the oil slinger. It isn't a problem

Recurving the distributor can make a big improvement for not much money or effort.


Timing covers are available new for about 50 bucks. Make sure you get one with the dipstick hole. Not all of them have it.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.
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#3
Thanks TommyK. Good insight into all the questions I have. So since this is only one step up from stock I really won't get the horsepower gains that are typical from getting a performance cam? My goal is to have a semi-hot street cruiser so a cam with a range from idle to 3000 would probably be best for that application. This seems like it would have that. As far as roller rockers, I only considered them because I've heard of at least a 10 hp gain across the power band (I could be off on this). Seeing as how there's tons of variations of them on summit racing, I'm debating opening up that can of worms and getting myself into something I'm not familiar with. I wanted to go double roller but not sure what you're referring to as the oil slinger? Also, will the stock timing cover fit with a double roller? Have you used any of the timing covers from summit that are Pioneer brand or Dorman? Only reason I ask is because those two brands are almost $100 cheaper than the summit brand of timing cover and also have questionable reviews that mention poor fit and quality.
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#4
afeng79;242166 Wrote:Thanks TommyK. Good insight into all the questions I have. So since this is only one step up from stock I really won't get the horsepower gains that are typical from getting a performance cam? My goal is to have a semi-hot street cruiser so a cam with a range from idle to 3000 would probably be best for that application. This seems like it would have that. As far as roller rockers, I only considered them because I've heard of at least a 10 hp gain across the power band (I could be off on this). Seeing as how there's tons of variations of them on summit racing, I'm debating opening up that can of worms and getting myself into something I'm not familiar with. I wanted to go double roller but not sure what you're referring to as the oil slinger? Also, will the stock timing cover fit with a double roller? Have you used any of the timing covers from summit that are Pioneer brand or Dorman? Only reason I ask is because those two brands are almost $100 cheaper than the summit brand of timing cover and also have questionable reviews that mention poor fit and quality.

I know what you are saying about the timing cover reviews. I bought mine a number of years ago off ebay. It worked ok for me. I can't really recommend one over the other. In general, a good used OEM is usually better than aftermarket.

The oil slinger is that thin sheet metal disc on the crank snout that is visible in your second pic. Its purpose is too sling oil away from the front crank seal thereby reducing the potential for front seal leaks. A double roller timing set is usually thicker than a stock timing set. As a result the oil slinger can be pressed against the front timing cover/seal and get chewed up. I used the FRPP 9 way adjustable timing set and left the slinger out. I have some leaks but the front seal isn't one of them.

The cam you have proposed is a decent budget upgrade on an otherwise stock engine and drive train. Without knowing what the rest of your combo is or what you consider the power level of a "semi hot street cruiser" to be is, I can't really make any specific recommendations. However that cam will make an abundance of torque from idle to 3000 rpm so based on that indicated desire I think it is a good match and will produce a prodigious amount of tire smoke with the other upgrades I have suggested.

A stock cast iron manifold will make great low rpm torque but an Eddy Performer manifold may help extend the rpm range of the cam.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.
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#5
Awesome advice for a novice like myself. I don't think I can justify going with a timing cover for that much. Found one on Jegs for $90 so I'll give that one a shot.

Here's the timing set I'm leaning towards: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3122

I'll look at my budget and see if I can squeeze a new manifold in Smile. I've found myself in a mess with uncovering parts of the engine. Now I decided I'm replacing the oil pan, oil pump, and pickup tube (while the pan is off). Any idea if I can lift up the engine enough to pull off the stock pan and put a new stock pan back in? It needs replacing because I don't have peace of mind with the large dent right underneath the oil pump.
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#6
afeng79;242201 Wrote:Awesome advice for a novice like myself. I don't think I can justify going with a timing cover for that much. Found one on Jegs for $90 so I'll give that one a shot.

Here's the timing set I'm leaning towards: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3122

I'll look at my budget and see if I can squeeze a new manifold in Smile. I've found myself in a mess with uncovering parts of the engine. Now I decided I'm replacing the oil pan, oil pump, and pickup tube (while the pan is off). Any idea if I can lift up the engine enough to pull off the stock pan and put a new stock pan back in? It needs replacing because I don't have peace of mind with the large dent right underneath the oil pump.

That timing set should work fine.

I think it would be pretty tough to remove the oil pan with the engine still in the car but I haven't tried it.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.
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#7
If you're planning to go this far into the engine, I suggest you just remove it. You'll spend more time fighting to get things taken apart and properly put together than the time it will take to remove & replace the engine. It's much easier to properly assemble and seal the engine with it hanging off a stand than it is installed in the car.
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#8
Well that's just the problem. I had never planned to but you can tell a lot about an engine's health from taking off the top end and front end and I didn't like what I saw. It was supposedly a running engine according to the guy I got it from but I'm now skeptical about that after seeing it all. The car fired up and ran just fine (sounded great with the dual flowmasters actually!) for the 30 seconds I had it running before tearing it apart so I know there's nothing majorly wrong. The one thing I noticed was a little bit of excessive smoke/vapor coming out of that stock breather cap. Not sure if that could be old buildup or old oil. I didn't see any oil in my radiator so I don't think it has a head gasket leak causing vapor out the crankcase. I have access to an engine puller so I might have to go that route but I really really....really didn't want to.

UPDATE: I had to drill into that bolt stuck in the block for an hour slowly shredding it into shavings to make way for a helicoil. Not what I wanted to do but it happens. Does anyone know if Napa timing covers are any good?
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#9
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your timimg cover may be fine . . i would simply clean it and if it is not extremely thin anywhere just reuse i.

you are likely getting smoke from the breathers because your piston rings are worn and maybe yoir guides too and bad valve seals etc.

we need to knpw your exact model of engine . . if it has low compression there is no point in installing a bigger cam.

also, if you go much over stock on the cam you need headers . . then maybe a stall converter etc.
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