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351c vs 351w
#1
Here is a link to a pretty cool chart

http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewe...nce_id=132
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#2
Pretty cool, but what's the deal with having a 351-C and 351-H (like they are breaking the H code out separately from the M and Q codes)? And the 351-C 4 bolt had differing compression ratios and HP levels among the different years but that's not reflected like it is with the R code. Just a few observations.

Steve



[Image: 25yvyp3.jpg]
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#3
the 351c has poor oiling system when the 351w has a great oiling system.

the 351c uses big block type heads and has canted valves like them too. and the 351w has similar heads to a 289-302. the 351c in stock trim will out breath a w motor.

in the past, only the 351w motor could be stroked out and had aftermarket heads. but that soon became false cuz now there is aftermarket heads for the C motor and now a stroker kit.

the 351 can except cleveland heads to put together the best of both worlds.

my OEM motor is a 351c motor but dad put a 351w when i was in high school cuz he bought the motor from somebody and it was a running engine from a 69 and ran great. so i weighed the options.
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#4
I have to disagree about the oiling system. The cleveland system certainly isn't a priority main system, but that does not make it automatically inferior. Many problems are traceable to using windsor lifters in cleveland blocks when the combination is a mismatch at the very heart of the oiling system. Unfortunately the Cleveland's US lifespan was short so hot rodders never got a true chance to adjust to the differences.

Clevelands, in my opinion, run best with solid lifters and hot cams designed for a higher RPM range than windsors. the design breathes so well that to saddle it with 5500rpm peak power and 3.25 gears is going to create a pig of a motor, but build it to it's strengths and it shines. ford built a motor capable of big block power out of small block dimensions. If the horsepower wars had continued, the Cleveland would have become the small block chevy of the hot rod industry.

[Image: 1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png]

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!
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#5
There are some other mistakes as well. They don't account for HP being measured SAE Net in '72-'73 so the numbers look worse than they actually are. The Boss motors used a spreadbore carb, not squarebore. '72 HO didn't have ram air.

Steve
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#6
Yeah, that chart is too inaccurate. I'll create an new correct one that we can post on here if you all will help collect the details for me.

Reply and fill in the correct info...


1971 H-code 351 2-V
Engine Type:
Displacement:
Maximum torque:
Maximum Horsepower:
Firing Order: 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Bore & Stroke: 4.00" X 3.50" (101.6 mm X 88.9 mm)
Compression Ratio:
Oil Pressure (hot):
Mains: 2-bolt
Carburetor:
Carburetor cfm:
Fuel Octane required:
Intake Manifold:
Valve train:
Intake Valve size:
Exhaust Valve size:
Distributor:
Point Gap:
Initial Ignition Timing:
Dwell @ idle RPM: _____(manual) _____(automatic)
Spark Plug:
Spark Plug Gap:
Long Block Weight in lbs.:
Emission Controls:
RPM Rev Limiter:


Need the same info above for each of these engines

1972 H-code 351-2V
1973 H-code 351-2V
1969-73 351W-2V
1969-73 351W-4V
1970-71 M-code 351-4V
1971 Q-code 351-4V
1972 Q-code 351-4V
1973 Q-code 351-4V
1971 R-code BOSS 351
1972 R-code HO 351


Or instead of copy pasting the info into a new message... I created a public file where you can post the info directly. It's an Excel spreadsheet. Just don't delete any info on there. Wink

351 engine spec (working file)



.

[Image: 386_07_10_13_5_58_42.jpeg]
My Mustangs:
71 M-code Mach 1, Medium Blue/White Sport, 4R70W, 3L50, Factory Ram Air.
72 Q-code Mach 1, Pewter/Black Sport, 4-spd, 3L25.
65 Convertible, Britney Blue/White/White, more modified than original.
05 Convertible, Legend Lime/Tan/Tan, future classic??
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#7
Nobody?

[Image: 386_07_10_13_5_58_42.jpeg]
My Mustangs:
71 M-code Mach 1, Medium Blue/White Sport, 4R70W, 3L50, Factory Ram Air.
72 Q-code Mach 1, Pewter/Black Sport, 4-spd, 3L25.
65 Convertible, Britney Blue/White/White, more modified than original.
05 Convertible, Legend Lime/Tan/Tan, future classic??
  Reply
#8
xoliex;70303 Wrote:the 351c has poor oiling system when the 351w has a great oiling system.

Ya ...Thats a old myth ...Some too do with some lousy aftermarket cranks that blocked some of the proper oiling...it has a better oiling system than 351w and 302...Reason in racing it didnt need side oiling like a 427...Cleveland is quite abit ahead of the old 289 style small block..Better webbing in the blocks..And better cast tech...I use to think it had bad oiling system too..Till i talked too alot of the old circle track racers here...They said there clevelands would out last any small block on the track....She got alot of bad press during the gas crunch.

It was no accident that when equipped with a 0.600 inch lift endurance racing camshaft the 351C 4V makes about 500 bhp at about 7000 rpm. From 5.75 liters! 7 liter hemi motor torque and horsepower from 5.75 liters at the same rpm.

As the 351C 4V powered Fords thundered around the banked ovals at 7200 rpm for 500 miles, they did so with complete reliability. They were reliable in spite of their nodular iron cranks instead of steel cranks, in spite of their thin wall block instead of thick bulkheads, in spite of their lack of cross bolting AND in spite of their lack of side oiling. The engineers achieved the 351C 4V's reliability with all those short cuts because they weren't short cuts. Like the wide main bearing caps, the engineers deliberately chose engineered solutions instead of brute force to make the motor reliable.The 351C did not have a reputation for problems in the early years. Through 1973 all the press the 351C 4V received was stellar.

1974 was the first year the 351C received bad press in the magazines. It was the year of the first oil embargo. It was the year everyone started buying intake manifolds with tiny runners, economy cams and headers with tiny primaries trying to improve the fuel economy of their V8s. It was the year that the sbc with its small ports began to dominate the aftermarket parts industry, helped along by a bunch of guys like Vizard & Yunick with vested interests in the little sbc motor. It was also the year Hank The Crank introduced a new crankshaft for the 351C. A magazine writer (numskull) named CJ Baker was a significant source for the body of mis-information that grew up around the 351C 4V.

As is usual in motor sports, racers & teams kept pushing the limits. They were no longer satisfied racing at 7200 rpm and they began pushing the motors to higher and higher engine speeds. By 1977 they were cruising the ovals at 8500 rpm making about 600 horsepower. Quite a bit above the original design parameters of the 351C 4V. The problem was, US Ford abandoned racing in February 1973, and no further official development of the motor occurred after that.

Hank The Crank introduced a forged steel 351C 4V crankshaft in 1974. The crank was internally balanced, had extra counter weights AND ... very significantly ... relocated oil passages that would allow a greater range of strokes than the iron crank.<~~~ the bad press killed the cleveland and some a few bad designed aftermarket parts.....No other small block made at the time could hang a cleveland.

Link to the full story..and a good one...thanks too donWink i still got it saved...lol http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-the-amazing-351c-4v
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#9
I think the chart is wrong on Windsor valve sizes too

[Image: 1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png]

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!
  Reply
#10
Bottom line is there are much better parts available to build a max effort Windsor than for a Cleveland.

SAD but true!

Jeff T.

Low buck, touring style, '73 Convertible "rolling restoration", 351c, 2v heads with a shave and a haircut, Performer intake, Holley 650(ish), roller rockers, screw in studs, guideplates, stainless valves, Duraspark / Motorsports MSD, T-5 conversion. 1-1/8" front, 3/4" rear swaybars KYB shocks and some home brewed subframe connectors. Future plans; JGC steering box, Cobra brakes and... paint, interior, etc.

When I die I want to die like grandpa, peacefully in my sleep... not screaming, like his passenger.

[Image: 1_12_09_14_10_15_11.png]
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