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351C Engine Strategy Consult
#1
OK,
Here comes another “what to do with the engine” thread, be forewarnedSmile

The engine came out of my car and went on the stand in late 2002. When I removed it the engine was running healthy, happy, other than some leaking valve stem seals. According to the previous owner it was rebuilt in the early 90’s (I have owned it since 95) and it has less than 10,000 miles on that rebuild. I planned this to be a winter freshen up the engine bay, then go right back in spring of 2003. Fast forward to now, eight years later, and thanks to rust findings and having kids the engine is still on the stand.

The engine compartment itself is now ready, and I am turning attention to the engine. I power-washed the engine this weekend. Now I need to decide what to do next. Originally I planned on cleaning the block and heads with a wire wheel and painting them, and removing the covers, pan, and intake to media blast and do the same. Install new valve stem seals, reassemble, and drive.

Now I am beginning to wonder if that is my best option. As long as the engine has been idle, and since it is out already, should I dig in deeper? It has been sitting but in a climate controlled garage, should I worry about rust on the crank/cam/other places? I am not sure if I have one piece stainless exhaust valves, but I have read enough to know that if I do not I probably should. Should I go ahead and plan on disassembling the whole engine, have the block and heads hot tanked and checked at a machine shop and then reassemble? Perhaps I need to get the pan and intake off first to evaluate further…

My goals for this engine are a reliable street weekend cruiser with no need for big horsepower gains. It would be nice to keep the costs to a minimum, but if I should spend a little money now to save a bunch later I will. I can do the disassembly and reassembly myself (with a little help from my friends here if neededSmile. I also would really like to get this car back on the road soon. Early this summer would be ideal, it has just been WAYY too long.
To further complicate my decisions, I also have a nice set of (supposedly) rebuilt two barrel heads and an Edelbrock aluminum dual plane intake like this:
http://www.hawkinsspeedshop.com/year-end...re-bo.html

My original plans were to reinstall the last known running configuration of 4V heads and stock cast iron intake then swap to the other stuff later to see what net gains I saw. Now, am I better off just building it that way from the start? I have 3:50 gears (recently verified after thinking they were 3:91’s) and a 4 speed FWIW.
Right after removal circa 9/2002:
   
As it has sat on the stand since then:

.jpg   eng.JPG (Size: 48.32 KB / Downloads: 226)
Thoughts?
~Jim
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#2
If you are worried about it, I would just take the oil pan and the heads off and take a look at what your working with. The one piece valves are a very good idea, you can tell if you have one piece valves by looking at the valve keepers, originals have multiple grooves, one piece valves have a single groove usually. But then again, it doesn't sound like you plan on much high rpm action so the valves would probably be fine. My engine actually still has the original valves in it, despite constant abuse they have held up fine.


The 2v heads would more than likely make it produce less power, unless they are the high compression Aussie heads.


What I personally would do, is pop the oil pan off, inspect everything, clean up the engine, replace any seals and gaskets that need to be changed, then go from there adding some basic performance upgrades, edelbrock intake, carb, msd ignition etc.

[Image: 25rnz1y.jpg]

~Buddy
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#3
I assume the engine turns freely with the plugs out and no water entered the engine when it was washed. If you have access to a leak down checker do a leak down check before any disassembly. This will tell you the general state of ring sealing and valve sealing. Sell the 2V heads and intake. The 2V builds more torque issue is way over played by those with heavy cars, 2.78 gears, and using parts that are not well matched to each other. You have a 3.50 gear which should work well. The valve issue is not about steel or stainless steel (although today many replacement valves are SS). It is the design of the valve keepers, single groove or three groove. The 3 groove design has too much slop, weakens the tip, and causes failure. Since it is out of the car, and you plan to buy new valves, I would at least pull the pan, intake, and heads and check everything rods, mains, cam, pump, and timing chain set. IF the cam is stock Ford 1972 CJ consider advancing the cam 4 degrees. The factory retarded the cam 4 degrees trying to meet emissions standards. This made the engine sluggish at lower RPMs. If you find significant scarring on the oil pump gears replace the pump with a standard volume pump. Never use a high volume pump with a stock capacity oil pan. It pumps too much oil into the valve covers and starves the rods and mains. IF you end up completely disassembling the engine, consider having oil restrictors installed to lessen the flow of oil to the lifters and consequently increasing the oil flow to the rods and mains (you can still use hydraulic lifters). The intake will support more power than you say you want, so use it, unless you want to change to a square bore carburetor (even then you could use and adaptor, but 70 and early 71 near square bore 4V intakes are cheap). If the 4300-D carb was working fine, use it with the stock intake and count yourself as being very lucky. If everything checks out OK you are only out the cost of the valves, a valve job, the gaskets and seals, and some time. And it bought you a lot of peace of mind. If it doesn't check out OK you saved yourself a lot of time, work, and brain damaging frustration by finding the problems now, before it is back in the car.

Good Luck,
Chuck

Forgot to say wipe down any surface to be painted with wax and grease remover, then again with a clean dry cloth. Then the paint will stick.
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#4
Widowmaker00;16296 Wrote:If you are worried about it, I would just take the oil pan and the heads off and take a look at what your working with. The one piece valves are a very good idea, you can tell if you have one piece valves by looking at the valve keepers, originals have multiple grooves, one piece valves have a single groove usually. But then again, it doesn't sound like you plan on much high rpm action so the valves would probably be fine. My engine actually still has the original valves in it, despite constant abuse they have held up fine.


The 2v heads would more than likely make it produce less power, unless they are the high compression Aussie heads.


What I personally would do, is pop the oil pan off, inspect everything, clean up the engine, replace any seals and gaskets that need to be changed, then go from there adding some basic performance upgrades, edelbrock intake, carb, msd ignition etc.

+1 on the above

Add cam upgrade, straight up timing set and headers. Ditch the autolite carb.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.
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#5
Also I am pretty sure the Edelbrock intake can also be used on the 4 v heads. I have the Air gap and they only make it for 2v heads but when you read the description it says it can also be used on 4v heads. And my Air gap is on 4v closed chamber heads and it added 50hp to the dyno run.

Eric


[Image: a58hgh.jpg]
DRIVE IT DON'T STORE IT!
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#6
when I got my 72 351 it had been sitting for several years. the guy would start it, he said every month. well when I pulled apart I found the rod and main bearings very pitted and pealing.... did not look right to me. I took them to my mechanist and he told me it was from sitting so long to oil turns acidic. so with telling you my story, I would pull your bearing it may be worth you time. good luck!!
  Reply
#7
72fastback;16305 Wrote:Also I am pretty sure the Edelbrock intake can also be used on the 4 v heads. I have the Air gap and they only make it for 2v heads but when you read the description it says it can also be used on 4v heads. And my Air gap is on 4v closed chamber heads and it added 50hp to the dyno run.

Yes I believe 2v intakes will fit on both style heads. The Air Gap intake is designed to work with their aluminum cylinder heads, which have 2v sized ports. The Air Gap intake is a real good intake though for both heads I would imagine.

The 4v edelbrock performer intake (not air gap) has ports/runners more suited to the ports on the regular 4v head.

Now the question is, on a 4v headed engine, would the regular Performer 4v intake or the 2v Air Gap intake make better power?

I'm betting on the Air Gap.

[Image: 25rnz1y.jpg]

~Buddy
  Reply
#8
All advice above is excellent. I can add nothing except that if you do nothing your engine is probably fine as it currently sits...but while it is out it is fine to tweak in the areas as mentioned above if you feel so inclined -or not. Either way no big deal.

[Image: 386_07_10_13_5_58_42.jpeg]
My Mustangs:
71 M-code Mach 1, Medium Blue/White Sport, 4R70W, 3L50, Factory Ram Air.
72 Q-code Mach 1, Pewter/Black Sport, 4-spd, 3L25.
65 Convertible, Britney Blue/White/White, more modified than original.
05 Convertible, Legend Lime/Tan/Tan, future classic??
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#9
Widowmaker00;16312 Wrote:
72fastback;16305 Wrote:Also I am pretty sure the Edelbrock intake can also be used on the 4 v heads. I have the Air gap and they only make it for 2v heads but when you read the description it says it can also be used on 4v heads. And my Air gap is on 4v closed chamber heads and it added 50hp to the dyno run.

Yes I believe 2v intakes will fit on both style heads. The Air Gap intake is designed to work with their aluminum cylinder heads, which have 2v sized ports. The Air Gap intake is a real good intake though for both heads I would imagine.

The 4v edelbrock performer intake (not air gap) has ports/runners more suited to the ports on the regular 4v head.

Now the question is, on a 4v headed engine, would the regular Performer 4v intake or the 2v Air Gap intake make better power?

I'm betting on the Air Gap.

I think you get more low end torque with the 2v air gap. As far as hp goes I am not sure. But as I said above I got a 50hp increase from stock closed chamber to Air gap. I have an article that I scanned from the engine masters mag that tests intakes I'll see if I can post it and if it's readable.

Eric


[Image: a58hgh.jpg]
DRIVE IT DON'T STORE IT!
  Reply
#10
All,
Thanks for the advice so far. Regarding the leak down tester, I do not have one, but I will soon. I have a compression tester but never owned a leak down tester. After reading up about them, one needs to be in my arsenal. I actually have parts to build a good one thanks to my rather well stocked pneumatics bin thanks to my job...but that is another post. Here is a pretty decent page about building and using a leak down tester:
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcy...kdown.html

So the plan is to:
1) Pull the pan and look at a couple mains and ensure there is no rust or pitting.
2) Ensure the motor rotates freely with the plugs out.
3) Reinstall plugs and pan and do a leak down test.

...and go from there. I guess since the motor will be cold my leakage may be a bit higher, but I want to see consistency, right?

Regarding the carb and cam. I have rebuilt the 4300D once and it has really run like a charm ever since. It starts on the first turn, and my plugs have always read pretty darn good. Considering myself lucky!

Cam. No clue. The car came with two cams in boxes that were used. I think one is the stock Ford cam. I have no idea what is in it. I figure with some dial indicators and V blocks which I have I can do a reverse engineering effort on the cam. I have to admit I have not done this before, so if anyone has or knows of a good how to on this I am all ears.

The car does have an MSD Unilite distributor in it, which is nice. The coveted replacement dual points for the stock distributor that I paid through the nose for dropped a rub block less than 100 miles after I installed them. It took me half a day to set them up and balance them perfectly when I installed them. It took less than hour to drop in the Unilite and the car ran better immediately.

I like the stick with the 4v, cast intake and 4300D plan for now. The car ran plenty strong when I parked it. If I do decide to sell the intake and heads that is money I can dump right back into the car "guilt free". Also the cast iron exhaust manifolds will likely stay. I went down the header route on the 302, and the cast irons are back now on that car. I guess I am getting old…but the noise and leakage problems I had outweighed the HP gain for my needs.


Thanks, please keep the advice flowing.
~Jim
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