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Having problems starting the Alumium Headed 521
#1
i finally got my long tube headers installed (will post in another thread about this) and last night i finally wanted to fire her up. well i could get her to run for about 10-15 secons and then it'll die while i was on the throttle. i tried advancing the timing and retarding and etc, however Scott J my engine builder stabbed down the timing on the dyno so it shouldn't of moved. after a while, all it was doing was shooting a small backfire thru carb with a flame in all 4 barrels. it was late so i quit!

this morning, i couldn't get it to start at all and i inspected the ignition parts throughout and found nothing. i checked the firing order several times and no wires are out of place. i had to go out of town so i came back to it tonight.

tonight i immediately cranked the motor over with a timing light to see if i can see a light so i know its getting spark. i also removed coil wire from dizzy to make sure the coil is arching. i wasn't sure if maybe the arch was weak so i quickly wired up my old coil. i also saw that vacuum leaks can cause problems with motor not running right and staying on so i went ahead and plugged off my port at the back of the carb and the ported vacuum at the front of the carb. i also opened up the carb to make sure i didn't have anything funny like loose jets and nothing.

i went to start her up and it finally fired up as long as i kept my hand on the throttle. i held her down for about 30 seconds as she ran. now, i'm not getting any fire thru the carb. my battery is starting to run out of juice so i can't place with it anymore. but before then i had hard times getting it to start and i don't know whats causing it.

i didn't touch anything to the ignition system from the 466 swap to this motor and i'm using a MSD 6AL-2 and the wiring is the same as always. this box was installed last march so its only 14 months old. when i crank the motor over, it sounds like it always wants to start.

any help at this moment would be appreciated. i am going out of town for a few days so i can't get back to the car for a little bit. i am hoping to take my old MSD coil and install it on my friends 64 stang and see if it was causing the car not to run. maybe even install my wires on his car as well even though they are new and so are the plugs.

thanks guys.
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#2
I"m sure you"ll find the gremlin, Olie !Just a process of elimination.Good luck!

[Image: 1_11_01_14_4_00_47.jpeg]
460 , Edelbrock Performer carb. + intake , 204 / 214 cam , Pertronix Flamethrower 2 billet dizzy + coil , Crites long tubes , C6 .









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#3
May be something in the air bleeds or metering passages...
Swap the carb for another known good one, even though you had yours apart.
Fill the bowls with fuel before cranking.
If it does the same thing, you can eliminate a fuel issue.

Pete - MotoArts Decals and Signs
'71 Sportsroof 351C-4V/4-speed - FINALLY under construction - no, wait, on hold again...
'90 Mustang 7-Up 5.0 ragtop, rolling beater
'66 Sunbeam Tiger Mk.IA, survivor
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#4
I agree with Pete...it sounds like a fuel issue to me.

BT

Do the RIGHT thing.
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#5
Olie, were you saying you had open vacuum ports? That will definately cause running issues, especially the big port at the back of the carb. Chech for air leaks at the base of the carb, turn up the idle speed screw on the carb to keep it running then you can adjust the timing, idle speed and idle mixture.

Jeff T.

Low buck, touring style, '73 Convertible "rolling restoration", 351c, 2v heads with a shave and a haircut, Performer intake, Holley 650(ish), roller rockers, screw in studs, guideplates, stainless valves, Duraspark / Motorsports MSD, T-5 conversion. 1-1/8" front, 3/4" rear swaybars KYB shocks and some home brewed subframe connectors. Future plans; JGC steering box, Cobra brakes and... paint, interior, etc.

When I die I want to die like grandpa, peacefully in my sleep... not screaming, like his passenger.

[Image: 1_12_09_14_10_15_11.png]
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#6
Wrench 
xoliex,

To me, it sounds like the timing is not correct. When one has fire shooting back up through the carburetor, that to me indicates timing is not correct. Did your engine builder dial in the timing with a Precision Cam Degree Wheel and TDC dial indicator? Have you tested to see if your Top Dead center and distributor rotor are aligned? Also, I believe that harmonic balancers are known to slip or move causing timing alignment problems.

A Ford engine, when the timing is dead on the money, should fire with just a one or two revolutions of starting.

Here is a TDC indicator from Auto Zone for $9.95

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4795/overview/

Just My two Cents worth!

mustang7173 Idea
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#7
when the engine builder had the motor on the dyno, he used two carbs. he used his and mine and they all ran great.

the morning before i left (military tdy again) i successfully got her to run finally without turning off quickly and running for more than 10 seconds. this time i tried a spare/old coil i had. initially i just had it laying on the manifold but i then found that the positive wire was arching to the manifold ground. so i fully mounted it on the manifold with the bracket. i also plugged the port in the back of the carb and the ported vacuum port at the front of the carb. then i was able to make it run as long as i held the idle at 1600rpms. this motor should be able to idle at 1000rpms and i just couldn't get it to do that. it wanted to die if it was under 1600 regardless. and since the idle was kind of high, i couldn't really stab down the timing. i know the engine builder told me to stab 28 total advance timing and about 12 initial. i started to run out of time so i had to quit. it also makes it hard to tune things when you are running open headers, however i am running header collector muflers which quite it down some and should benefit when i add in a head pipe.

i had a friend of mine take my old coil and see if it will run on his car to see if that was the cause. however, i thought i could be having some vacuum leak somewhere at the carb base so i did snug up the bolts a little more. i am running a two inch spacer, the base gets bolted down individually and the top has regular 1 inch studs. i will say it is a summit brand two inch spacer and hopefully it isn't leaking. i also had to grind off a little bit of the inner ears cuz it was touching a screw on my accelerator pump on the carb.

all in all, i don't think it should be my carb cuz it just ran on the engine just fine. i do think its my timing cuz i had to move it from where the engine builder stabbed it. the only thing that has changed is my ignition from the engine from dyno to my engine bay with addition to my own carb spacer. i pretty much have to use a spacer now because i run my regulator at the end of the fuel log and it hangs down kind of low to the manifold.

i hope i can figure it out quick so i can take her to the exhaust shop and quite her down. the thing that puzzles me is the motor was dyno'd and ran awesome. if haves to be along the lines of my parts which is only the spacer and my ignition box and exhaust. i don't think running open headers should make a difference as i've done it before. i am also running no exhaust gasket, and just RTV. (mad dog recommended it and alot of people do it)

any help would be appreciated.
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#8
I think you have narrowed it down to one of two issues.

1. A vacuum leak somewhere
or
2. Ignition timing - obviously you are getting fuel and spark i just think there is either a ignition timing adjustment out of wack or possibly the idle adjustments on the carb are not right.

Have you backed out the metering screws 1 1/2 turns from closed? Maybe set the idle screw a little high until you can get the idle down a bit more.
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#9
xoliex,

Are you using the PVC valve and tube to the carburetor? Do you have a thinner carburetor spacer plate? Can you mount the carburetor without the spacer? What is the make and cfm size of your Carb? Maybe your carburetor is not big enough or the installed Jets are too small for the amount of air flow.

Holley Interactive selection Guide

http://www.holley.com/applications/Carbu...ection.asp


mustang7173
  Reply
#10
matrixx;124458 Wrote:I think you have narrowed it down to one of two issues.

1. A vacuum leak somewhere
or
2. Ignition timing - obviously you are getting fuel and spark i just think there is either a ignition timing adjustment out of wack or possibly the idle adjustments on the carb are not right.

Have you backed out the metering screws 1 1/2 turns from closed? Maybe set the idle screw a little high until you can get the idle down a bit more.



from the dyno he had my screws out like 2.5 turns. i currently have them out at about 1.5-2.0 turns out.

mustang7173;124468 Wrote:xoliex,

Are you using the PVC valve and tube to the carburetor? Do you have a thinner carburetor spacer plate? Can you mount the carburetor without the spacer? What is the make and cfm size of your Carb? Maybe your carburetor is not big enough or the installed Jets are too small for the amount of air flow.

Holley Interactive selection Guide

http://www.holley.com/applications/Carbu...ection.asp


mustang7173

i am running a PCV valve but i'm running straight off of #4 runner on the manifold and not off of the carb. i have a 1 inch carb spacer but my return line fitting will end up almost touching the manifold ( i could just turn my reglator to the side or cut down the return elbow if really needed) my carburetor is a PROSYSTEMS 1000cfm carb and it was built to my custom engine. on the dyno, the engine builder played with the carb until we received MAX power and i currently have 96 and 104 jets in it right now. the reason for the big huge jets is because 1000cfm carbs don't have great signal and on top of that i have a low rise single plane. most guys who run a torker II intake on a 460 will have to run larger jets with a big carb.

i hope its something as little as vacuum leak. however, i have to re-establish the timing because its a little hard to get a timing down when it keeps wanting to die and won't idle under 1600. i won't be back in town until next thursday so all i could do now is gather information and ideas. so i can attack things when i get home.
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