Current time: 12-07-2016, 01:13 PM Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Welcome to 7173Mustangs.com!

You are currently viewing the board as a guest. Please Register or Login for full functionality

If you registered and did not receive your email validation, please send a contact note to the admin by clicking here and filling out the short form.



 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Questions on adjusting Timing
Author Message
f117rt



*
"A" List Customer

Posts: 461
Joined: Jul 2010
Region: Not Selected
Morris County, NJ
Reputation: 7


    Post: #1
    Questions on adjusting Timing

    I Installed The Pertronix II system in this morning using the stock coil. Easy install and it ran and idled well.
    I am still having problems upon accelerating while driving. If I baby it she drives fine. As soon as I get on it the carb pops and backfires.
    At this point I need to make sure the timing is properly set before I start playing around with the carb.

    I borrowed agood timing light and an Analyzer from a friend.

    The first thing I need to do is disconnect the vacuum hose from the distributor.

    Do I plug both the hose and dstributor? or just the line?
    What should the needle be pointing to?
    Once this is set, do I have to check it with the vacuum line connected back to the distributor?

    Sorry for all the question, but I guess that the Ford manuals are written for mechanic and not noobs.

    Is there a website or link that woiuld guide me through this?
    Offline 09-18-2010 04:48 PM
    Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
    72fastback



    *
    One Too Many

    Posts: 1,456
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Region: Not Selected
    gatineau,Quebec,Canada
    Reputation: 9


      Post: #2
      RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

      (09-18-2010 04:48 PM)f117rt Wrote:  I Installed The Pertronix II system in this morning using the stock coil. Easy install and it ran and idled well.
      I am still having problems upon accelerating while driving. If I baby it she drives fine. As soon as I get on it the carb pops and backfires.
      At this point I need to make sure the timing is properly set before I start playing around with the carb.

      I borrowed agood timing light and an Analyzer from a friend.

      The first thing I need to do is disconnect the vacuum hose from the distributor.

      Do I plug both the hose and dstributor? or just the line?
      What should the needle be pointing to?
      Once this is set, do I have to check it with the vacuum line connected back to the distributor?

      Sorry for all the question, but I guess that the Ford manuals are written for mechanic and not noobs.

      Is there a website or link that woiuld guide me through this?

      I am having a problem with backfires with the ignitor 3 from petronix view my threads on the resistance and backfiring.the resistance wire can cause problems in our cars they usually need to be bypassed.
      Offline 09-18-2010 05:35 PM
      Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
      72HCODE


      [Image: NYtechDan.png]

      *
      My world is fire and blood.

      Posts: 2,991
      Joined: Jul 2010
      Region: Northeast
      New York
      Reputation: 139



      A+ Writing Meet and Greet 1 - 4 Tutorial Coin Shooter

        Post: #3
        RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

        disconnect the vacuum advance, and plug it on the manifold or carb. pull the hose off the vacuum advance just in case it accidentally falls into the belt. you don't need to plug the vacuum advance.

        well depending on your motor and setup you could be anywhere from 6 degs up to 20 degs of initial. sometimes your lucky and somebody has correctly marked on the balancer where your initial timing should be. Start with 10 degrees of timing if your not sure.

        ford had 6-8 degrees in the manual, however retarding the timing too far can cause the engine to over heat.

        there are other factors like making sure you do not advance the timing too far.

        now:

        did you have these carb backfire issues before the petronix install?

        was there a time in the past when this engine did run correctly on any setup?

        if you answered yes and no and you thought putting in an electronic ignition would help then your looking at the wrong place, you will most likely need to start getting into the carburetor.

        best case scenario the carb is just gummed up and needs an overhaul. worst case the carb is good, you need to start fiddling with the accelerator pump shot and cam, and you need to take a good look the mechanical advance on the distributor.

        first tell us more history of the car.
        Offline 09-18-2010 06:06 PM
        Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
        f117rt



        *
        "A" List Customer

        Posts: 461
        Joined: Jul 2010
        Region: Not Selected
        Morris County, NJ
        Reputation: 7


          Post: #4
          RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

          (09-18-2010 06:06 PM)72HCODE Wrote:  disconnect the vacuum advance, and plug it on the manifold or carb. pull the hose off the vacuum advance just in case it accidentally falls into the belt. you don't need to plug the vacuum advance.

          well depending on your motor and setup you could be anywhere from 6 degs up to 20 degs of initial. sometimes your lucky and somebody has correctly marked on the balancer where your initial timing should be. Start with 10 degrees of timing if your not sure.

          ford had 6-8 degrees in the manual, however retarding the timing too far can cause the engine to over heat.

          there are other factors like making sure you do not advance the timing too far.

          now:

          did you have these carb backfire issues before the petronix install?

          was there a time in the past when this engine did run correctly on any setup?

          if you answered yes and no and you thought putting in an electronic ignition would help then your looking at the wrong place, you will most likely need to start getting into the carburetor.

          best case scenario the carb is just gummed up and needs an overhaul. worst case the carb is good, you need to start fiddling with the accelerator pump shot and cam, and you need to take a good look the mechanical advance on the distributor.

          first tell us more history of the car.

          The engine is stock 351 C with 2V.
          I purchased it in 4 months ago when I noticed a pop in the air cleaner only on hard acceleration. I brought it to a Supposedly knowledgeable mechanic and he said that the Points just needed adjustment.
          It ran OK fo a while with no backfiring in the air cleaner.
          I then focused on the saftey fixups like brakes front suspension and steering. Now that that was all done and was about ready to research a paint shop and the backfireing started up aging only this time it was worse.
          That was what lead me to belive it was the points again, so I decided to go with Pertronix.
          I tried to check the timing but I couldn't even see any marks on the balancer. I did clean it off before hand. I loosened the hold down bolt for the distributor but it would not turn for adjustment. Can I spray W-D40 at the base to get it loose?
          Offline 09-19-2010 04:08 PM
          Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
          72HCODE


          [Image: NYtechDan.png]

          *
          My world is fire and blood.

          Posts: 2,991
          Joined: Jul 2010
          Region: Northeast
          New York
          Reputation: 139



          A+ Writing Meet and Greet 1 - 4 Tutorial Coin Shooter

            Post: #5
            RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

            ok.
            you have a short history with this car.

            it could have a fuel feed issue. usually a backfire through the intake out the carb indicates a lean condition. the engine is not getting enough fuel.

            now points can also have an effect. as the points wear the timing can change. if the timing retards then you could develop a stumble.

            the problem as you describe it came and went and now its much worse, then you switched to a petronixs to see if it would help and its worse then ever.

            now the distributor is stuck so that means the mechanic never adjusted the timing. he most likely adjusted the points and though that was it.

            yes you can spray wd-40 around the base, you could also try penetrating oil on it and keep spraying it daily trying to free it. these distributors can get stuck.

            a few things with the petronix if you have a voltage issue due to the resistance wire not feeding 12 volts to the unit under load then that can cause problems.

            however in this case you had points and its the same problem. i would say put your points back on adjust them correctly use a dwell gauge. next i would check all the ignition wires make sure nothing is loose or broken the condition of the rotor and cap is good.
            next make sure the initial timing is lets say 10 so you know your ignition is correct and working.

            maybe a good idea to have a new coil to try out.

            however under heavy acceleration and a lean misfire i would start looking at the fuel being supplied.

            look at the carb, move the throttle and see if the accelerator pump is working and the shooters are spraying fuel down the barrels and nothing is clogged. you can do this with the car off, take a flashlight and look down the barrels, then press on the accelerator pump arm and see if fuel sprays.

            its possible that you have rust in fuel tank and its clogging things up or pieces of rust from the tank have gone into the carb and could be clogging up the carburetor internally.

            do you have an external fuel filter on the fuel line. i would want to see the quality of the fuel that the tank or the fuel pump is providing, is it full of rust particles is it cloudy.

            next you could suspect the fuel pump if its not working correctly or is starting to go internally then it would not be supplying the correct fuel pressure when needed.

            i would inspect the fuel lines if they are corroded on the outside badly the inside will be just as bad.

            if you find your external fuel filter has alot of junk in it, then you may want to drain the tank and pull the fuel sender and have a look at the sock filter and the condition of the bottom of the tank.

            the problem here is,, lets say you rebuild the carb and it does have rust and junk inside it, when you hook it back up its just going to clog up again because the tank, or fuel lines, or sender or fuel pump is all full of junk.

            first i would put everything back the way it was don't worry about the petronixs for now go back to points and make sure everything is in spec on the spark side.

            then i would want to look at the quality of fuel being provided there should be no rust particles inside it and it should be clear.

            if the fuel is clear i would want to inspect the fuel system to make sure the tank is clean.

            check your engine oil for any signs of fuel contamination, that is a sign the pump is going.

            i would get a new fuel pump and a coil and have them on standby to replace.

            once i was 100% sure the fuel system was clean then i would open the carb and clean it all out. check all fuel pathways inside the accelerator pump circuit.

            once the fuel system is ruled out then we can start looking into the petronix.
            Offline 09-19-2010 11:09 PM
            Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
            73vertproject


            [Image: NVtagDOC.png]

            *
            Don't Change User Title :)

            Posts: 5,076
            Joined: Aug 2010
            Region: West
            McDermitt, NV
            Reputation: 54



            Meet and Greet 1 - 4 Navy Shooter Music Note

              Post: #6
              RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

              Why not just use a penetrating oil like Freeze-Off to loosen the distributor? I'm not sure of the ability of WD-40 to "break free" the rusted parts, and I don't like the silicone residue it leaves.

              I don't know much about these products beyond my experience, but so far I've had good luck with the Freeze-Off in getting parts "unstuck", and it doesn't leave a film on the part like WD-40 can.

              Just my 2 cents,

              Doc
              Offline 09-19-2010 11:11 PM
              Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
              f117rt



              *
              "A" List Customer

              Posts: 461
              Joined: Jul 2010
              Region: Not Selected
              Morris County, NJ
              Reputation: 7


                Post: #7
                RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

                So, I checked the fuel filter and it was Ok but I changed it anyway.

                Still the same problem, I spoke with Garden State Mustang guy yesterday and he thinks that the carb could need rebuilding.
                He won't know for sure until he sees it next week.

                Now the new delema, if it needs the rebuild/exchange, should i pay to have the carb rebuilt or switch over to a 4V setup?

                I never touched a carb before. How difficult is it to just replace the original?
                When they send you a rebuilt one, are they usually pre set and you just connect the linkage?
                Offline 09-22-2010 09:13 AM
                Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
                72HCODE


                [Image: NYtechDan.png]

                *
                My world is fire and blood.

                Posts: 2,991
                Joined: Jul 2010
                Region: Northeast
                New York
                Reputation: 139



                A+ Writing Meet and Greet 1 - 4 Tutorial Coin Shooter

                  Post: #8
                  RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

                  if you switch to a 4 barrel you may have to change your intake manifold as well.

                  a carb is pretty simple to rebuild yourself, up till 4 years ago i never touch a carb, now i could field strip them.

                  if the carb turns out to be the only problem the biggest thing will be cleaning out the fuel passages inside the different blocks, they are quite small and easy for junk to get stuck inside.

                  to replace the original 2 barrel is easier then the 4 barrel holley offers re-manufactured ford carburetors, they cost about 200$ depends on your original factory equipment.

                  or you can get more original equipment from re-builders.

                  going aftermarket ,to open up yoour choices, would require switching out the intake manifold, the reason is the ford carb mount on the intake is not universal, its shaped just to fit certain carbs. Holleys and edelbrocks use a square bore style mount. so you end up pulling the stock intake, and swaping it for a performa intake or something else.

                  it depends on what you want to do, once you start swaping out the intake manifold it leads to other issues that need to be resolved. like placement of the pcv or EGR, having to relocate the coil, if equipped going from a hot air choke to an electric choke, also losing part of the fuel evaporator system, also you may have to start relocating vacuum trees and changing out vaccum hoses, which can be a big deal if your state has some kind of nazi rules enforcement of emissions controls when or if you require a state inspection, depending on your cars original equipment setup can be a pain or easy.

                  then every carb has its qwerks holleys tend to be more of a pain to setup because they offer such a wide range of tuning that it can be overwhelming.
                  edelbrocks tend to be drop in and play, and have better leakage, but are not as tunable if you have some weird engine combination, also the Throttle linkage setup when an edelbrock when setup for a 71-73 throttle and kick down system does not work and will jam which means you have to either change the system over to use a cable(instead of the bent rod linkage) or additionally changing the throttle cable around. the problem is edelbrocks addons go on the side of the carb and make the carb really wide, then everything binds up, holley addons keep the width the same and add linkages front and back. its just easier mechanically on a 71-73 to use a holley but either can be adapted. edelbrocks have a better fuel bowl design as well.


                  its just one thing leading to another but there will be a performance gain, how much depends on you.

                  depending on the complexity of the swap the results can be instant from hey i'm driving the car this is awesome, to the car sitting for 6 years because it pissed you off and it turns into a shelf.

                  on sending out a carb for rebuilding i have no experience. some places you send in your carb and they send you a replacement and keep your original as a core.
                  others they fix your carb and send you carb back. depends on how original you want the car to be.
                  Offline 09-22-2010 09:55 AM
                  Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
                  f117rt



                  *
                  "A" List Customer

                  Posts: 461
                  Joined: Jul 2010
                  Region: Not Selected
                  Morris County, NJ
                  Reputation: 7


                    Post: #9
                    RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

                    (09-22-2010 09:55 AM)72HCODE Wrote:  if you switch to a 4 barrel you may have to change your intake manifold as well.

                    a carb is pretty simple to rebuild yourself, up till 4 years ago i never touch a carb, now i could field strip them.

                    if the carb turns out to be the only problem the biggest thing will be cleaning out the fuel passages inside the different blocks, they are quite small and easy for junk to get stuck inside.

                    to replace the original 2 barrel is easier then the 4 barrel holley offers re-manufactured ford carburetors, they cost about 200$ depends on your original factory equipment.

                    or you can get more original equipment from re-builders.

                    going aftermarket ,to open up yoour choices, would require switching out the intake manifold, the reason is the ford carb mount on the intake is not universal, its shaped just to fit certain carbs. Holleys and edelbrocks use a square bore style mount. so you end up pulling the stock intake, and swaping it for a performa intake or something else.

                    it depends on what you want to do, once you start swaping out the intake manifold it leads to other issues that need to be resolved. like placement of the pcv or EGR, having to relocate the coil, if equipped going from a hot air choke to an electric choke, also losing part of the fuel evaporator system, also you may have to start relocating vacuum trees and changing out vaccum hoses, which can be a big deal if your state has some kind of nazi rules enforcement of emissions controls when or if you require a state inspection, depending on your cars original equipment setup can be a pain or easy.

                    then every carb has its qwerks holleys tend to be more of a pain to setup because they offer such a wide range of tuning that it can be overwhelming.
                    edelbrocks tend to be drop in and play, and have better leakage, but are not as tunable if you have some weird engine combination, also the Throttle linkage setup when an edelbrock when setup for a 71-73 throttle and kick down system does not work and will jam which means you have to either change the system over to use a cable(instead of the bent rod linkage) or additionally changing the throttle cable around. the problem is edelbrocks addons go on the side of the carb and make the carb really wide, then everything binds up, holley addons keep the width the same and add linkages front and back. its just easier mechanically on a 71-73 to use a holley but either can be adapted. edelbrocks have a better fuel bowl design as well.


                    its just one thing leading to another but there will be a performance gain, how much depends on you.

                    depending on the complexity of the swap the results can be instant from hey i'm driving the car this is awesome, to the car sitting for 6 years because it pissed you off and it turns into a shelf.

                    on sending out a carb for rebuilding i have no experience. some places you send in your carb and they send you a replacement and keep your original as a core.
                    others they fix your carb and send you carb back. depends on how original you want the car to be.

                    Today I checked the timing, vacuum pressure and fuel prssure and it all checked out to be OK.

                    Therefore, it looks like its pointing to the carb.
                    I have never done a carb rebuild so it will be a new endeavor.
                    I've been told that it is not that difficult.

                    What do you guys think?
                    It is a stock 2V (2100 I think, or is it a 2100D?)

                    Can anyone recommend a rebuild kit and a good step by step instuction book?
                    Offline 10-04-2010 08:20 PM
                    Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
                    72HCODE


                    [Image: NYtechDan.png]

                    *
                    My world is fire and blood.

                    Posts: 2,991
                    Joined: Jul 2010
                    Region: Northeast
                    New York
                    Reputation: 139



                    A+ Writing Meet and Greet 1 - 4 Tutorial Coin Shooter

                      Post: #10
                      RE: Questions on adjusting Timing

                      well this would give you a start.

                      1) version
                      http://www.automedia.com/Motorcraft_Carb...020301cr/1

                      2) another version
                      http://www.hurtle.com/cars/mustang/fixes/carb/

                      here is a rebuild kit

                      http://mustangsunlimited.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=586+01


                      its not hard to rebuild a carb, but the first time will make you nervous. take notes when you remove a adjustment screw try to mark how many revolutions it took to bottom it out carefully. the biggest settings would be the idle mixture and idle, since its a 2 barrel you won't have to worry about any secondary adjustments.

                      basically you take the carb all apart inspect for damage, then you have to clean it out really well the hard part is cleaning out the little fuel circuits and tunnels then assemble it and start to make adjustments.

                      research more material before you start
                      Offline 10-04-2010 08:54 PM
                      Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply



                      Possibly Related Threads...
                      Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
                        installing duraspark questions mycoses 2 234 08-21-2016 02:30 PM
                      Last Post: Don C
                        Difficulty Seeing the timing pointer….. FirstMach1 3 471 10-12-2015 02:15 PM
                      Last Post: FirstMach1
                        What should my timing be set at? york0060 12 864 09-10-2015 07:19 PM
                      Last Post: midlife
                        Bypass heater core questions 73mach1whiskey 3 583 08-26-2015 10:46 AM
                      Last Post: 73mach1whiskey
                        Cam Timing Gear Pin (Damage) 351w hetrickw 3 395 07-20-2015 09:24 PM
                      Last Post: MeZapU
                        Door hinges , pin questions waterlife 7 849 04-27-2015 10:05 AM
                      Last Post: jims72
                      Stop Fuel pump R&R questions waterlife 4 500 02-08-2015 12:46 PM
                      Last Post: CZ-75
                        Carb Rebuild Questions 73StangCoupe 30 2,087 11-09-2014 05:44 PM
                      Last Post: 73StangCoupe



                      User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)